Anyone else feel Nintendo is getting lazy with Mario games?

[Fawfulthegreat64]

This is pretty long, so I'll spoiler it.

Spoiler

Think about it. Sure, games like 3D World are good, but compare them to the big Mario titles of the past, like 64, Sunshine, and both Galaxy games. They simply had much more content and each level had more secrets, multiple missions, NPCs with dialogue, etc. Now it's more of "race to the finish" without as much exploration outside finding the stamps and green stars. 64 alone had more creativity with missions that required a puzzle to be solved instead of straightforward "follow the path and get to the end."

That's not to mention the spinoffs, like Mario Kart and Paper Mario. Mario Kart is still an excellent series, and MK8 is still an excellent game, but open your eyes, people. Visually it is amazing, a truly beautiful game. But it has less content than previous entries in the series. MKTV is great, but what about battle-exclusive stages? Modes like Bob-Omb Blast? Fan-favorite characters like Diddy Kong, Bowser Jr., King Boo, and Birdo? Newcomers people wanted like E. Gadd, Toadsworth, Kamek, Fawful, Dixie Kong, and Hammer Bro, most of which would require new models rather than copy-paste models from NSMBU and simple edits of Peach and Baby Peach's models?

Don't even GET me started on Paper Mario. I'm a huge fanboy of the PM series and even I think the latest one is crap. New characters would be too much effort for them to think up, so Nintendo ordered the developers to be as lazy as possible with Sticker Star. Each game prior to this had 8 full-fledged chapters with colorful characters and a sub-plot in each. This one doesn't even have 8 chapters, but 6 cliched worlds (Grasslands, desert, forest, snowland, jungle, Bowserland, same old things you see in NSMB) with only a bunch of generic Toads and one Wiggler for your NPCs. Not to mention counting bosses, there are only 73 different enemies (your standard Bowser minions, no more); each of the first three installments had over 100 enemies, many of them exclusive to the Paper Mario series.

That's not to mention other series like Mario Party, which seems to be declining since it changed developers. Some subseries, like Mario & Luigi, are still doing fairly well. Aside from the "Bowser must always be the final boss of every Mario game" thing they set up for the Wii U/3DS era, that is.

 

[Cirdec]

Mario main Wii U games have multiplayer so they can't get the style of 64, Sunshine and Galaxy games. I don't think they are getting lazy on that, at least wait till they make a one player Mario game.

For Mario Kart 8, at least it has more content than Mario Kart 7, they worked a lot on graphics and balance. About the roster, since koopalings took too many slots, they could not put all other classic characters, hence they added new characters.

For Paper Mario, there are no excuses for Sticker Star, they went lazy indeed after removing partners. It seems they are forgetting these series at the moment.

And for Mario Party, Mario Party 8 was pretty bad, that's pretty much why they changed developer and tried new things with adding a car in boards. Unfortunately not everyone liked that.

 

[Glowsquid]

They simply had much more content and each level had more secrets, multiple missions,

Like what? Recycled "collect the red coins" missions? Recycled purple coins missions? Collect 100 coins in every level? 100% the game again... as Luigi?

64 alone had more creativity with missions that required a puzzle to be solved instead of straightforward "follow the path and get to the end."

You're being unduly dimisive of the amount of time and effort it takes to design an entertaining, balanced level.

Most of which would require new models rather than copy-paste models from NSMBU

And with that, you're clearly dismissive (or simply ignorant) of the effort needed to rig new animations, especially at the quality level Mk8 exhibits.

sticker stars

Sticker Star had essentially its entire game design thrown out early development. The developers made a conscious choice to exclude partners because they were clashing with the new mechanic they were told to focus on. It was an unfortunate choice, and the final product is flawed, but it's not "lazy".

each of the first three installments had over 100 enemies, many of them exclusive to the Paper Mario series.

-most of which are pallete swap. Comparing content simply by throwing out numbers with little context behind them is dumb. It was dumb when IGN claimed Splosion Man is a better than NSMB Wii because the former has 100 levels and the later 77, and it's dumb now.

Game development is a long, grueling process. It's also expensive. With this generation, it's never been more expensive. Sometimes, the need to get something out on time and budget far outweight the necessity to pander to the 0 people that won't buy Mario Kart 8 because Fawful isn't in it. The sooner you understand that, the more content decisions about the recent games will make sense.

 

[Nysic]

As much as I hate Sticker Star, I'm going to have to agree with Glowsquid. They were given a mechanic and had to make it work, so they made cuts.

 

[Magikrazy]

The paragraph on Mario Kart made it seem like you've completely ruled out DLC.

 

[Dardy]

Now it's more of "race to the finish" without as much exploration

That is the kind of games that can be sold fast and easy. When I was 6 years old, and heard about SM64. I was very afraid of how complex the game could be, and I decided I'm not buying it. However, when I heard about New Super Mario Bros., I rushed searching for it in every store because it is a one-line game. And I played it before. Even after I saw guys playing SM64, I didn't feel confident, I felt I would lose at the first level. I didn't decide to try SM64, until I became 12. Didn't try Sunshine until I became 14 (I'm fifteen now). The right-to-left games sells better, simply because they were easy for all ages. If you are young and heard about a new Mario game.. If it was a sequal, you will buy it immediately, If it was a brand new game, you will give it a thought or two before deciding to buy it, you may even not buy it.

For selling purpose, you need to sell for the most amount of people as possible. 2D sells from age 6, 3D sells from 11.. <-- see the difference?

 

[3D Player 2004]

Now it's more of "race to the finish" without as much exploration

That is the kind of games that can be sold fast and easy. When I was 6 years old, and heard about SM64. I was very afraid of how complex the game could be, and I decided I'm not buying it. However, when I heard about New Super Mario Bros., I rushed searching for it in every store because it is a one-line game. And I played it before. Even after I saw guys playing SM64, I didn't feel confident, I felt I would lose at the first level. I didn't decide to try SM64, until I became 12. Didn't try Sunshine until I became 14 (I'm fifteen now). The right-to-left games sells better, simply because they were easy for all ages. If you are young and heard about a new Mario game.. If it was a sequal, you will buy it immediately, If it was a brand new game, you will give it a thought or two before deciding to buy it, you may even not buy it.

For selling purpose, you need to sell for the most amount of people as possible. 2D sells from age 6, 3D sells from 11.. <-- see the difference?

bold information is incorrect.

Except 2D games are more hardcore. Older people are more likely to prefer hardcore games. 2D (and recent 3D) makes it so that you lose powerups upon getting hit. This makes the game incredibly more frustrating. I couldn't handle that level of frustration back when I was younger. I did however enjoy Super Mario Galaxy since I was 8 years old, I couldn't get over 2D until age 15. I am 15 right now. Super Mario 64 Style sells from 6. NSMB syle sells from 13.

 

[Magikrazy]

Different strokes for different folks.

 

[Giga12]

The thing is, 2D I think focuses more on precision platforming, while 3D focuses on puzzle-solving. Both are recycled and stale, but 3D is somewhat better for having actual new ideas.

 

[Ray Trace]

Ok, so I'm going to counter-argue every single one of your Mario Kart 8 points regarding about Nintendo being "lazy".

But it has less content than previous entries in the series.

No, it doesn't. In fact, it has more content than the rest of the series. It has VS mode, something Mario Kart 7 failed to have, it has expanded kart customization, more than Mario Kart 7 and much more options to choose from than any of the Mario Kart games in the series. It has 30 characters, which is more than any other Mario Kart games in the series (I'll get to the content of the characters but your argument was that it has "less content" so I'm throwing it out the window. The stages it has is on par with most other Mario Kart games, but the detail and the courses themselves have so much detail that it's actually a bit more than normal. And the retro courses are overhauled to the point where they were virtually unrecognizable.

MKTV is great, but what about battle-exclusive stages? Modes like Bob-Omb Blast?

The courses being battle mode thing was a design choice, not a rushed one.

http://nintendoeverything.com/mario-kart-8-director-on-why-arenas-were-replaced-with-tracks-in-battle-mode/

Of course it wasn't executed the best but people give WAY too much flak on it. And why do people always want Bob-omb Blast back? Battle mode lets you customize your items so you'll receive a specific set of them, INCLUDING a Bob-ombs Only mode. This Bob-ombs Only mode FAR outclasses Bob-omb Blast. Bob-omb Blast was point-based in this regard, but Bob-ombs Only Battle Mode requires more strategy than "camp and stock on bob-ombs and let 'em loose" like in Bob-omb Blast. And no, this item customization is great. We don't need a "Smash Bros." styled item customization since it goes against the purpose and item RNG of Mario Kart in the first place.

Fan-favorite characters like Diddy Kong, Bowser Jr., King Boo, and Birdo? Newcomers people wanted like E. Gadd, Toadsworth, Kamek, Fawful, Dixie Kong, and Hammer Bro, most of which would require new models rather than copy-paste models from NSMBU and simple edits of Peach and Baby Peach's models?

OK so now you're totally biased here.

I get you on why people were upset with obvious choices such as Diddy Kong and the gang, but then you said this:

most of which would require new models rather than copy-paste models from NSMBU and simple edits of Peach and Baby Peach's models?

Your first point is totally bullshit. Your requested characters, like E. Gadd, Kamek, Toadsworth, Dixie Kong, Hammer Bro., etc would also be "copy-paste models from *respective games*" so I clearly don't see what makes the Koopalings any worse if that's your reasoning of the Koopalings being bad choices. Second you had to throw in "people wanted" as an excuse for why the characters Nintendo chosen were bad instead of the ones...ahem...YOU wanted. Of course, Pink Gold Peach and Baby Rosalina...they're stupid choices. But guess what? If these imaginary characters had much more of a chance than you know, your beloved RPG characters, then I think you should honestly give it a rest. If all 7 Koopalings got in, why should any single RPG character get a chance?



Oh yeah and....

Except 2D games are more hardcore. Older people are more likely to prefer hardcore games. 2D (and recent 3D) makes it so that you lose powerups upon getting hit. This makes the game incredibly more frustrating. I couldn't handle that level of frustration back when I was younger. I did however enjoy Super Mario Galaxy since I was 8 years old, I couldn't get over 2D until age 15. I am 15 right now. Super Mario 64 Style sells from 6. NSMB syle sells from 13.

What the ---- are you trying to say here?

What the --- does "hardcore" mean?

Anecdotal evidence is not the plural of data. I think BOTH Super Mario 64 and New Super Mario Bros. sells for roughly the same age. They're both not THAT complicated to understand.

 

[LeftyGreenMario]

I don't think Nintendo is "being lazy". They're being safe. Super Mario 3D World is a very safe game. It's good, but by far, not amazing. It's not innovating by a decent stretch of imagination, and the gameplay and level design are never wowing.

Playable characters are only a small fraction of the content. I think people are overrating character rosters and not paying attention to the game mechanics. But, my favorite character happens to be the biggest shoo-in ever, so maybe that's why I'm focusing more on mechanics rather than roster. Nevertheless, it's the reason character reveals from Smash Bros. hardly excite me nowadays.

Expectations influence the final opinion of the game, so I don't know what your expectations are, but they must be unrealistic if you found Mario Kart 8 to be lacking in content (and I'm not talking about your character choices).

 

[Stargazing]

Fawful

Ah yes, I remember crying that Fawful wasn't in Mario Kart DS. When I was 6. Now I'm 13, and I laugh at my stupidity like Fawful's tea that laughs at you.

Nintendo is stubborn about using characters they didn't create, which is why you never see Waluigi outside of spinoffs, since he was created by Camelot. Fawful and the other RPG characters were created by different companies than Nintendo. Sorry.

EDIT: And I agree on your point about that "fan-favourites" like Bowser Jr. and King Boo getting kicked out, btw. I also would like seeing Dixie Kong and maybe even E. Gadd. It depends on the character creators. Also, regarding to the NSMBU model copy-paste, Hammer Bro. would probably need one if they're cutting-and-pasting the models. just saying

 

[Ray Trace]

I'm pretty sure ALL characters you see are technically "copied pasted" from their games with the exception of the new ones. There's NO way you can create something identical to Baby Luigi from the ground-up, despite Baby Luigi's subtle differences. I'm pretty sure their models are taken from other games and improved on.

 

[Giga12]

So, you're saying the babies came from Super Sluggers, and Rosalina came from 3D World?

 

[Ray Trace]

So, you're saying the babies came from Super Sluggers, and Rosalina came from 3D World?

It's a great possibility. I doubt they can create two identical models from the ground up unless they really spend their time and effort on this. In fact, Baby Luigi's model from Mario Kart 8 is even less complex than the one in Super Sluggers since his mouth is a lot less detailed. It's just the pretty graphical effects that distract us.

 

[Giga12]

I noticed the low-poly as well. :P

 

[Toad Eightyfive]

This just in, Nintendo rehashes game design ideas.

In other news, water is wet.

 

[LeftyGreenMario]

This just in, Nintendo rehashes game design ideas.

In other news, water is wet.

ITT or referring to my sister's posts?

 

[Ray Trace]

This just in, Nintendo rehashes game design ideas.

In other news, water is wet.

ITT or referring to my sister's posts?

ITT you idiot

 

[LeftyGreenMario]

It's hard to tell either way.

idiot.

 

[Zae]

This just in, Nintendo rehashes game design ideas.

In other news, water is wet.

i laughed pretty hard, but this basically.

They even do that in rpgs.

 

[Toad Eightyfive]

This just in, Nintendo rehashes game design ideas.

In other news, water is wet.

ITT or referring to my sister's posts?

ITT.