Allies: how do they work?

Time Turner

Time Turner

You are filled with determination. (R/GD/TT)
Today, I posted a proposal to delete the List of allies page, which I found to be redundant and often haphazard.

As it turns out, I just opened a can of worms. Mario and I argued a whole bunch towards each other and by the end of it, I think we're both confused. Anyone else wanna read through what we've posted and throw in their thoughts and/or something coherent?
 
Hoo boy, I must have spent so much time thinking of a coherent argument on keeping that list.

Basically, I argued that the Allies list isn't redundant. Even if everything in the Allies list can be found in the "Characters" list, the Allies list serves a more specific function, just as we have boss and enemy lists along with a character and species list.

Wouldn't the "Bosses/Enemies" list be redundant with characters and species, in the same way as the Allies list? Sure, the Allies have a bigger chunk of characters than species compared to the Enemies/Bosses list, but the bulk of the Mario series is defeating many, many enemies, so it's really more of a byproduct than a proportion issue.

The biggest problem is probably the realization on how these lists are formatted, though.

They're incomplete. For instance, playable Super Smash Bros. Brawl characters, especially Link and Kirby, who also play protagonist in the Club Nintendo comics, are not in the Allies list. Koopa Troopas, who are consistently allies in the Mario Party series, are not in the allies list. Shy Guys are in the allies list, but their game is... Super Mario Bros. 2 Mario vs. Konkey Dong.

The debut medium after the character. Good for rarely occurring characters, not so good for the staple characters.

The definition for what is an "enemy". Is it generic mook, a rival, or simply someone that is an obstacle (Glitz Pit Security comes into mind)? Do they have to be sometimes enemies, sometimes neutral, sometimes allies, or do they have to be always enemies? Does Mario qualify as an enemy because he was an antagonist once?

What is an "ally"? Are they the playable characters (like Boo from Mario Party, who is one of the serveral that can save the Star Carnival from Bowser?)

So yeah, questions, questions... maybe we're revealing a flaw in these lists.

My idea is to ditch Allies, Enemies, and Bosses lists and focus on organizing the remaining lists. The list will still be alphabetical, but maybe special characters or other things can indicate who are enemies, who are allies, and who are neither. But that kind of stuff can be messy.
 
In the past, special characters were use for the major lists (or at least one/some of them, I can't remember) to distinguish between Mario. Yoshi, DK and/or (maybe) Wario subjects. But then the page(s) got edited as a whole by a browser that didn't support the characters and they all turned into question marks, and no one realized it for the longest time, and by then, it was too late to revert: too much new stuff would've been lost. Or something like that.

Anyway, I always liked the idea of separating the lists by the major series, which could also include SSB and, I'd argue, another option for alternate media (as they often contain a disproportionate amount of entries for things like places and characters and whatnot).

I feel like scrapping the Enemies and Bosses lists aren't the best ideas, since enemies and bosses are rather vital aspects of the Mario series. I think the Allies list also serves a purpose, and is worth keeping, although ALL these lists need work, for sure. Like so many things on this wiki...
 
Walkazo said:
In the past, special characters were use for the major lists (or at least one/some of them, I can't remember) to distinguish between Mario. Yoshi, DK and/or (maybe) Wario subjects. But then the page(s) got edited as a whole by a browser that didn't support the characters and they all turned into question marks, and no one realized it for the longest time, and by then, it was too late to revert: too much new stuff would've been lost. Or something like that.
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Fun fact about that: the list you're talking about is the List of species, the change happened after Porple made an edit, and literally nothing has been done to remove the symbols since 2011.
 
Yeah, I figured it was species, since that's the one I've always been most interested in, but I wasn't sure if the others ever had anything too. And yeah I knew it was Steve, I just didn't want to name names, lol.

Mario, Yoshi, Crossover was a crappy, incomplete legend anyway.
 
Considering that it's doing absolutely nothing, we should scrap it for the moment. The idea definitely has merit, but we'll worry about it once we can create a system that can't be ruined entirely accidentally.
 
Walkazo said:
I feel like scrapping the Enemies and Bosses lists aren't the best ideas, since enemies and bosses are rather vital aspects of the Mario series. I think the Allies list also serves a purpose, and is worth keeping, although ALL these lists need work, for sure. Like so many things on this wiki...
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I'm not arguing for scrapping the lists ENTIRELY, but rather, remove them as separate pages and maybe implement special indicators for the more general pages for bosses and enemies. You know, use a legend.
 
Shulk said:
Ninelevendo said:
Dr. Mario said:
You know, use a legend.
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Walkazo said:
a browser that didn't support the characters and they all turned into question marks
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Unless there's a way around that, maybe not a good idea.
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We could just use characters on a common keyboard, like asterisks, ampersands, or even X's.
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I was thinking images, but they'd be too, uh, distracting?
 
Ninelevendo said:
Shulk said:
Ninelevendo said:
Dr. Mario said:
You know, use a legend.
Click to expand...
Walkazo said:
a browser that didn't support the characters and they all turned into question marks
Click to expand...
Unless there's a way around that, maybe not a good idea.
Click to expand...
We could just use characters on a common keyboard, like asterisks, ampersands, or even X's.
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I was thinking images, but they'd be too, uh, distracting?
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Maybe they are... it really depends on how many things get those marks.
 
Exactly. That would be my biggest concern.
 
That... actually looks pretty good. There'd be upwards of 400 images to add, but I wouldn't mind putting it into effect and seeing what the final result looks like.
 
But what about separating the enemies from the allies? What symbol are we going to use?
 
From the way I see it, I see one huge list that incorporates the allies and enemies and bosses list...
 
Ninelevendo said:
Why are enemies in the allies category?
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Aren't some enemies technically both in some games?

ie Koopa Troopas
 
I realize what I'm about to suggest would be a timesink and something of a pain in the arse to implement, but I think it would be worthwhile to separate the list in various headers. Categories like:

  • Direct gameplay allies: Things that are not the primary player avatar but that can be controlled. Examples includes the partners in Paper Mario and the mounts in the platformers.
  • Passive gameplay allies: Things that not directly assist the player avatar, but which may still be benevolent by handing out rewards or servicing goods. Examples include the Bob-omb buddies in Sm64, the map icon kongs in Kondey Dong Country... etc.
  • Storyline allies: Characters that assist the player avatar as part of the narrative, but whose intervention provide no visible benefit for the jumping/punching dudes action.
  • Unwitting buddies: NPCs/level props that are not directly harmful or benevolent. to the player avatar and that may need to be interracted with to progress, Examples include the random animals in Kondey Dong Country Returns, Huffin Puffin in Yoshi's Island... etc.
(better names are welcome)

Due to the large variety of genres the Mario series has dipped in, what's going to constitute as an "ally" is going to vary widly. An huge list of link whose sole inclusion criteria is "Things that have assisted the main character in some unspecified manner" just isn't interesting or helpful.
 
Glowsquid said:
I realize what I'm about to suggest would be a timesink and something of a pain in the arse to implement
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Sounds like the perfect job for me! In all seriousness, having specific categories for allies rather than simply bunching them all together and saying "They helped!" would make the list infinitely more practical.
 
Glowsquid said:
I realize what I'm about to suggest would be a timesink and something of a pain in the arse to implement, but I think it would be worthwhile to separate the list in various headers. Categories like:

  • Direct gameplay allies: Things that are not the primary player avatar but that can be controlled. Examples includes the partners in Paper Mario and the mounts in the platformers.
  • Passive gameplay allies: Things that not directly assist the player avatar, but which may still be benevolent by handing out rewards or servicing goods. Examples include the Bob-omb buddies in Sm64, the map icon kongs in Kondey Dong Country... etc.
  • Storyline allies: Characters that assist the player avatar as part of the narrative, but whose intervention provide no visible benefit for the jumping/punching dudes action.
  • Unwitting buddies: NPCs/level props that are not directly harmful or benevolent. to the player avatar and that may need to be interracted with to progress, Examples include the random animals in Kondey Dong Country Returns, Huffin Puffin in Yoshi's Island... etc.
(better names are welcome)

Due to the large variety of genres the Mario series has dipped in, what's going to constitute as an "ally" is going to vary widly. An huge list of link whose sole inclusion criteria is "Things that have assisted the main character in some unspecified manner" just isn't interesting or helpful.
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What about those that overlap between these categories e.g. Toad?
 
Put them in all applicable categories, with the relevant game(s) next to the character, duh?
 
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