A Dilemma for Future Smash Bros. Games

Which would you prefer?

  • All or Most of the characters from Smash 4 simply ported over with few changes in the next game

    Votes: 6 35.3%
  • Everything brand new, even making veterans from scratch, at the risk of losing some well-liked addit

    Votes: 6 35.3%
  • A Compromise between the two (Specify what you mean below)

    Votes: 5 29.4%

  • Total voters
    17

SonicMario

Star Spirit
Barring some situation where Nintendo decides to have someone else add more DLC after Sakurai has officially left development of Smash 4 to pursue his next project. Smash 4 is entirely done with adding new characters to Smash 4. Leaving the final total characters at 58. Which is a number thought impossible even among optimistic views of the roster for Smash 4. It's a really large roster and has the largest amount of added newcomers of any Smash game.

But now, here comes a bit of a dilemma in regards to the next Smash game. 58 is alot of characters especially for a game that boasts such character depth for a vast majority of them like Smash. It doesn't matter if you've been developing games your whole life or not. Trying to bring all those characters plus add a decent amount of new characters for a new game is alot on your shoulders. As not only when bringing them to a new game you have to balance them and possibly address issues such as complaints of how viable (On either side of the spectrum) they were in the previous game and balance the new characters while keeping them faithful to their games. Sakurai has said himself that games these days have become alot more difficult to make then they were even as far as just a decade ago. And the more effort that's needed to complete a full game, only the truly dedicated people would be left to design the game and sometimes that's not enough. Especially when it comes to expectations from the fans.

So the question is this: Would it be preferable to have the next Smash, possibly even all future Smash games, to simply port the characters over from Smash 4 if possible with relatively few changes so that most if not all the characters are back?. And even with that, if there is not enough time to bring everyone back, the fact DLC has been brought into Smash can come into play in case people really want some of their favorites from Smash 4 back. And Nintendo could even add some more new ones beyond even what Smash 4 brought us. Simply porting around 50 characters from Smash 4 to the next game would make many people happy and it's still give the developers time to focus more on whatever Newcomers are added to the game and even work on some fantastic new modes. The only problem is that taking it to this level gets the criticism of the developers being too lazy and may make the next Smash game feel like "Smash 4 2.0" instead of a full on Smash 5

The other option would to have everything done from scratch but at possibly the cost of losing alot of characters (And I mean quite a bit as in so much that they can't possibly just bring everyone back through DLC in favor of newer, more relevant characters). Even ones that are generally considered safe returns in order to make the next game feel truly different. Cause if you work on everything from the ground up, no doubt the developers would look down upon bringing all 58 characters from Smash 4 back in the Main Game. This is something where the developers can really get a focus at what they want for the next game instead of possibly just basing the game mostly on the previous one that would make some people feel they're going cheap on the process of bringing out Smash games. But it may break the hearts of many who loved any of the cut characters as every Smash character has fans that have some degree of attachment to them.

This is has just been something on my mind after DLC has officially finished when I just think about just how huge the roster of Smash 4 is and what impact it may have on the future of Smash considering people were hoping for little-to-no cuts between Brawl and Smash 4 too (For the exception of Wolf, Snake, Ice Climbers, and two of the three Pokemon Trainer pokemon we got that). If the next game isn't going to be simply porting over characters then there's no possible way they bring everyone from Smash 4 back and will no doubt probably have the largest amount of cut characters unless there's a promise to bring everyone else back through DLC. At the same time though the other side has a point in having the games feel truly different from what another. As while the differences between Brawl and Smash 4 are considered the smallest difference between each and every game in the series it still plays much differently enough for Smash 4 to be it's own game even with the rumors that much of the characters that were in Brawl that are in Smash 4 may have been somewhat ported over.

There's been talk that they've kinda already have been porting characters over, especially when Sakurai implied they may have tried to bring Mewtwo from Melee back that way but the technology was too obsolete to do properly so they built Mewtwo from scratch (While still keeping him faithful to how he fought in Melee). And if that's the case, then the question is should they continue to port characters like this so that we make sure a good majority come back? I think it's an interesting debate as Smash 4's speculation dies down and we look towards what the next game could bring years ahead of us.

We have no idea what the situation will be by the time Smash 5 starts nor do we know if Sakurai will even be the director of it. And we have no idea what side of this would a new director take it as it could be either/or. Cause it could be the porting so that alot of what Sakurai's done for the series hasn't gone to waste and it makes people happy with the new director that they brought most of the characters back. On the other hand the new director may have an entirely different vision of Smash Bros. then Sakurai does and want to do things his way. And that may include changing up everything from top-to-bottom, including cutting characters that only Sakurai had the vision to bring-to-life as fighters.

This is a vastly important question regarding the future of Smash Bros. that I feel definitely needs to be discussed. And should a Smash 5 be announced years from now, we can look back and see what they eventually went with.
 
I'd like a few creative changes to Mario's moveset, namely changing his Up-B to F.L.U.D.D. or maybe change Mario's moveset to make it more power-up based. But otherwise, his moveset is heavily inspired from the games to begin with, but I'd just like changes. Make him an excellent jumper, make his recovery better, but he's otherwise a pretty solid character. Finally, Mario should just sound and look like himself. He's sunshine and rainbows, not whatever Smash is doing with him right now.

Otherwise, overhauling EVERYTHING would take way too much resources because you also have to balance all of that, and so much other things. Making a moveset is so time consuming and probably uses resources. The most realistic thing is to expect some overhauls, some ports, so I chose a mix between the two. Finally, they shouldn't fix what isn't broken. They also have a working engine they can heavily modify and do other things, so I don't see the point in making one out of scratch.
 
One thing that's different about this game compared to other fighters is that players have a lot more history and attachment to these characters. In another fighter like Mortal Kombat, a character can be cut and people will be upset, but another character can come long and fill a similar niche, and most will get over it. With Smash, a lot of people play these characters because of who they are and what games they come from. Characters are also chosen to represent Nintendo and its history. This makes cutting characters a very difficult thing. People got up in arms when Roy was cut. Could you imagine the backlash if a bigger character like Diddy Kong or Sheik was cut?

I already dislike cutting characters in general since I know everyone of them has a large fanbase, and I hate losing unique movesets (still salty about ice Climbers and Snake). Making nearly 60 characters from scratch will not be feasible for the next game if Sakurai (or whoever) also wants to include a bunch of newcomers. Porting assets is the best way to go. That's not to say certain characters couldn't get large revamps like Bowser and Pit did, but I think reusing stuff is the way to go. As ong as charactesr are balanced and tweaked and not just slapped into a new game with a new engine. For example, if the new game was Melee-esque, a lot of the characters would need to be tweaked and balance to do better in that sort of environment.

One thing I know for sure is that as long as Sakuari is in charge, we won't see characters cut during development to be sold as DLC later. I've seen some people suggest having the base roster be made up of less characters with a lot of old vets being sold as DLC. He's stated that he dislikes the practice of making a game and chopping up content to sell for an additional fee later. He stated that all the DLC was planned and created after development ceased. The one thing that was cut during development was the Miiverse stage, which was added for free.

So yeah, I say port over all the old characters, tweak them as necessary, and focus on the new characters.
 
Most movesets should stay the same, but a fair amount of tweaks should be added to keep things fresh.

I do think Nintendo went a bit overboard with the characters in Smash 4, but I do have a strong opinion (The good type) on several newcomers. I do wish that they balance the next roster.
 
Hmmm... I don't know. I mean, I do have some strong opinions about many characters in Smash 4. Let's see...

I absolutely hate and despise the addition of Cloud. That shit doesn't make any sense at all. Cloud never appeared on a Nintendo console and it's yet ANOTHER third-party character with a sword that doesn't fit in Smash in the slightest.

Dark Pit is the most ridiculous character ever. He's just Pit's model with a different color palette and a tweak or two in his moveset. He doesn't bring anything new to the table and is only there because of Sakurai's bias towards his own characters.

Ryu is an iconic character in the gaming universe and has a very original moveset, but he still doesn't fit in Smash at all, just like Cloud and Snake.

So, if it were up to me, I would cut these two characters. Lucina and Dr. Mario would also get the axe. The thing is that I know how much it hurts to have your main cut because I went through that TWICE when Mewtwo and Lucas were initially cut in Brawl and Smash 4, and luckily I got them both back. I wouldn't like doing that to anybody. Hell, I still can't get over the Ice Climbers being gone and I didn't even use them. It's just not fair.

Now, when it comes to newcomers...

-Toad: Come on. The one main Mario character that is not playable in Smash. I'm sure they can do something amazing with him. Peach's B move isn't a problem, they could have another Toad that looks exactly the same for all I care. After all, we do have two characters with the exact same name in Smash 4 (Roy).

-Paper Mario: because his potential could be infinite. Paper Mario is really successful and one of the sub-series that fans love the most. He could have a very creative moveset (which I hope is based on all Paper Mario games and not just awful Sticker Star just for being the most recent one).

-Inkling: It's obvious they'll appear in Smash 5 with Splatoon being so freaking successful and popular. Their moveset will be really complex, I'm calling it.

-King. K Rool, Dixie Kong AND Cranky Kong: because they're iconic and the Donkey Kong series is pretty underrepresented, which is unfair given how iconic and popular it is. Each of them could have a pretty unique moveset.

-Ridley: at this rate I don't even have to explain. Easily the most requested character ever. I don't care if he's too big, they're smart enough to make him work.

-Peppy and Slippy (separately of course): because if Fire Emblem, a series that became somewhat popular pretty much overnight, has 6 FREAKING REPS, why not Star Fox? Being one of Nintendo's most iconic franchises, I think it would only be logical to have the whole Star Fox team in Smash by now, especially with Star Fox Zero approaching us. I would give them unique movesets, just like the one they created for Fox back in Smash 64.

-Impa: because I think Zelda needs more reps and she's the only one I think deserves to be in that's known enough. They could have her with a moveset similar to the one she has in Hyrule Warriors or they could come up with something different so she's not that similar to Sheik.

-Sceptile: this is only a placeholder, since it's a fact that we're going to get a new Pokémon in every Smash game, and it's going to be a popular one. By the time Smash 5 comes out, we will surely get the most popular Pokémon from Gen VII (or maybe even VIII), just like when we got Lucario and Greninja. Sceptile WOULD be really cool though, and it would complete the trio of starting types represented by fully evolved starters.

I'd also make Wolf, Ice Climbers, Squirtle and Ivysaur return. Yeah, that would make a whopping 9 Pokémon reps, but Sakurai has already shown us he doesn't give a damn and the so-called character-per-series limit we thought existed back in Brawl is not a thing. Heck, I once dreamed Pichu returned and they buffed him tremendously and gave him a brand-new moveset different from Pikachu's; he hurt himself with many of his own moves like in Melee and that made him reach rage status faster, turning him into a complete killing machine. I'd be down for that too.
 
Anser said:
it's yet ANOTHER third-party character with a sword that doesn't fit in Smash in the slightest.

???

Uh... isn't Cloud the only 3rd Party that uses a Sword? :???:
 
I kinda figured, just the wording of it all.

I'm afraid though that you may want to get used to 3rd Party additions. Considering we went from 2 to 6 3rd Parties, I don't see Nintendo slowing down possible Non-Nintendo characters anytime soon when the next Smash rolls around (Speaking of which you mention your opinions on Cloud and Ryu, yet you said nothing about Bayonetta. To be honest as much as I'm ok with all these 3rd Parties getting in the game. If Cloud makes me feel like he makes Snake make more sense then Bayonetta does the same for Cloud IMO)

And say what you will about too many swordfighters. Cloud's sword is no ordinary sword, not only does it's sheer size make it different in many ways from the usually slim straight ones most Fire Emblem characters have. But his sword (The Buster Sword to be exact) is one of the most iconic gaming weapons. It's probably up there with the Master Sword for well-known video game weaponry. (And hey, at least Cloud doesn't have a counter. To be honest there's probably more characters with a counter of some way then there are sword users)
 
Idk bayonetta made a bit more sense to me considering bayonetta 2 was on wii u

But I'm still fine with Cloud appearing. It's not like PlayStation will make another fighter anytime soon (although if they did, please get Cloud guys also crash)
 
Magikrazy said:
Idk bayonetta made a bit more sense to me considering bayonetta 2 was on wii u

But I'm still fine with Cloud appearing. It's not like PlayStation will make another fighter anytime soon (although if they did, please get Cloud guys also crash)

I'm just saying since Cloud has the whole face of Final Fantasy thing going for him when Final Fantasy was once huge for Nintendo back in the day.

Still though the whole thing of him being alot more famous for Sony systems is why suddenly Snake doesn't feel as strange of an inclusion because at least Snake did have some games release on Nintendo systems. Including his debut on the NES.

And as much as Bayonetta 2 being on Wii U does help, Bayonetta's also not a legendary franchise on the level of Metal Gear or Final Fantasy yet. At least they didn't go full this way by bringing in Shovel Knight (Which would of been way too soon). It still opens the door for 3rd Party characters that are recognizable, but not gaming icons overall. You could still argue that after Snake and Cloud, Bayonetta not so much.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not upset by Bayonetta's inclusion. I just think objectively she's the least deserving 3rd Party yet.
 
Northern Verve said:
I kinda figured, just the wording of it all.

I'm afraid though that you may want to get used to 3rd Party additions. Considering we went from 2 to 6 3rd Parties, I don't see Nintendo slowing down possible Non-Nintendo characters anytime soon when the next Smash rolls around (Speaking of which you mention your opinions on Cloud and Ryu, yet you said nothing about Bayonetta. To be honest as much as I'm ok with all these 3rd Parties getting in the game. If Cloud makes me feel like he makes Snake make more sense then Bayonetta does the same for Cloud IMO)

And say what you will about too many swordfighters. Cloud's sword is no ordinary sword, not only does it's sheer size make it different in many ways from the usually slim straight ones most Fire Emblem characters have. But his sword (The Buster Sword to be exact) is one of the most iconic gaming weapons. It's probably up there with the Master Sword for well-known video game weaponry. (And hey, at least Cloud doesn't have a counter. To be honest there's probably more characters with a counter of some way then there are sword users)

I didn't say anything about Bayonetta because I actually think that she makes sense, given how Bayonetta 2 was exclusive to the Wii U. I do agree with you about her inclusion being too soon. I would have waited for an eventual Bayonetta 3 so she's more known. Maybe Smash 5 was the right time (same with Corrin). Oh well...

And yes, in my previous post, I forgot to add a coma. I meant yet another 3rd party character AND another sword user.
 
I don't think Sakurai has ever stated that characters needed to be super close to Nintendo to get in. It certainly helps, but move set potential and general iconic-ness are the aspects he's gone on record to say are most important when it comes to third parties. Ryu and Cloud are some of the most iconic video game characters ever.
 
Ryu is an iconic character in the gaming universe and has a very original moveset, but he still doesn't fit in Smash at all, just like Cloud and Snake.

I fail to see how the fighting game character doesn't fit in a fighting game. Smash owes its existence to games like Street Fighter II and Ryu deserves a roster spot on that merit alone. He may not be super-important to Nintendo but he is incredibly so to the fighting genre. I don't care how you choose to play Smash, be it no items Final Destination or Bob-ombs set to high frequency on that godawful Gaur Plains stage, you're still playing a fighter. And anyone that's faced off against the friggin' Avengers should be worthy of smacking someone like Link around.

From an aesthetic standpoint, I can maybe see where you're coming from but honestly he's the most deserving new third party after Mega Man and Pac-Man.
 
Magikrazy said:
Cloud's inclusion pretty much opens the borders to any iconic video game character.

So this is the list of 3rd party characters I would like to see in the future.

Banjo-Kazooie
Rayman
Simon Belmont
Crash Bandicoot
Lara Croft
A Tekken or Soul character, preferably Heihachi
A classic arcade character, like maybe Frogger, Dig Dug, or Pepper Pete (the chef from Burger Time)

And not necessarily a character, but I'd like to see some Atari representation, maybe a stage that cycles through several Atari games, like Flat Zone.
And if third party franchises start getting more than one character, which I could totally see for the next game, I'd want M. Bison and Knuckles.
 
Threek said:
From an aesthetic standpoint, I can maybe see where you're coming from but honestly he's the most deserving new third party after Mega Man and Pac-Man.

This is what I meant. I meant it from an aesthetic point of view. That was my problem with Snake back in Brawl too.
 
Personally, the amount of characters is too high for me, and some characters, mainly clones, felt forced to expand the roster. Redoing everything from scratch may let the developers limit the roster, yet still add new characters while scrapping the unwanted ones.
 
Anser said:
Threek said:
From an aesthetic standpoint, I can maybe see where you're coming from but honestly he's the most deserving new third party after Mega Man and Pac-Man.

This is what I meant. I meant it from an aesthetic point of view. That was my problem with Snake back in Brawl too.
Marth and Ike look just as out of place alongside Krby and Villager. That's the fun of it. Nowhere else can you see such a crossover.
 
This is a game series where you can have the lord of evil Ganondorf hopping around with a bunny hood, beat him up with a Jigglypuff or any other cute character. Only for a random stage hazard run them both over.

I don't feel there's a true aesthetic. If you want to complain more about aesthetic, then I would think you'd be more concerned with how many more detailed human characters came in as newcomers (Ryu, Little Mac, Cloud, Shulk, Robin, Palutena, Bayonetta, Corrin, and Lucina. That's 9, nearly half of the newcomer pool for Smash 4) then about the 3rd Party characters in Smash 4. (Even if both 3rd Party characters you mentioned are among that list)
 
I think the next game they would likely have to resort to more newcomers from franchises already represented that new franchises, most nintendo owned franchises have rep in Smash now and they aren't any noticeable exceptions expect maybe Splatoon. Might have to dig into more obscure territory or approach for more 3rd party reps.
 
Northern Verve said:
Don't get me wrong, I'm not upset by Bayonetta's inclusion. I just think objectively she's the least deserving 3rd Party yet.
Hm, I don't like the "objective" term thrown in there. Deservingness is subjective no matter how much you spin it. Sure, Bayonetta is not a gaming icon like the other 3rd parties, but she has her own things going a lot for her, especially when Nintendo was mainly responsible for the entire existence of Bayonetta 2, further cemented by the game's exclusivity to the Wii U, the Nintendo-specific fan service, and how she's casted alongside other female Nintendo characters during Nintendo's promotion of strong female characters. She's really a quasi-third party, IMO, and so she's a pretty special case compared to the other third parties.
 
The problem with wanting the second choice is characters whose moveset are made up, will have nothing now. How can you come up with another moveset that does not overlap the preexisting moveset for characters like Fox, Falcon, Game & Watch, Marth, Sheik, etc? What about characters whose existing moveset is already perfect and as faithful as it already is? Plus, there are a few characters whose current moveset is all they can do, and wanting the second option would mean they can't keep any of that canonical moves.
 
I'm not sure how I should interpret the 2nd option as is, so I'll answer both scenario of "making things from scratch"

If by "making things from scratch", you mean overhauling the moveset of every returning characters: That's an horrible idea. People have their favorite, they spent a lot of time the move and the execution, and they really don't want to start over for the next thing. This applies to competive players as much as it does to casuals. Street Fighter III shows making a nearly total do-over with no point of references from the previous games is a path to failure.


If by "making things from scratch", you mean generally keeping the returning faithful but tweak some stuff and make brand new assets : Street Fighter V shows you have to be Very careful about the baseline amount of content if you're going to go this route. Of course the game has ton of issues, but the low number of playable charater and the lack of a lot of classic fighters like Blanka and Sagat is a big issue people have with the game.
 
If it is a standalone game:


We need as many characters as possible. All veterans except for Bayonetta.
Toad. Pitfall Harry. Battletoads. Simon Belmont. Ridley. Kraid. Light Warrior (FF1). Alex (RCR). Minecraft Steve. Protoman. Bass. Donkey Kong Jr.. Waluigi. Tetris. Gohma. Shadow. Silver. Shovel Knight. Tails. Knuckles. King K. Rool. Paper Mario. Viridian.



If it is an unlockable game in a Nintendo allstars racing game:


It can be a port of SSB64 for all I care, I'm sold.
 
I'm sure Nintendo has their stuff figured out. With ARMS out and being promoted as it is, I wouldn't expect Smash until a few more years have passed. And I would prefer that because then they would add substantial new content and characters.

Or they can simply add Daisy and be done with the series.
 
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