What If Nintendo Had Followed Sega's Direction During The 2000s?

[Sleuth "Doggy" Dawg]

As we all know, Mario was pretty much at the top of his game (no pun intended) during the mid-to-late 2000s with smash hit games such as the first two New Super Mario Bros. Games, the first Super Mario Galaxy game, Mario and Luigi: Bowser's Inside Story et cetera, while Sonic was having his hits and misses with gimmicky story-oriented games like Sonic and the Secret Rings, Sonic Unleashed, Sonic and the Black Knight and so on. But what if Nintendo decided to follow what Sega was doing with Sonic during the back half of the 2000s by having Mario starring in the same gimmicky story-oriented games that Sonic also starred in?

Would we then perhaps have seen an Arabian Nights-styled Mario game where he, Luigi, Peach and Toad team up with their Arabian family counterparts from Yume Kojo: Doki Doki Panic? And if so, would it have been called Super Mario Sandcombers to go along with the Arabian theme? Subsequently, what improvements would it make in both story and gameplay where Sonic and the Secret Rings went wrong?

Or would we then perhaps have seen a Luigi's Mansion game inspired by Sonic Unleashed where Luigi was cursed by King Boo where he would turn into a werewolf when exposed to moonlight if he happened to pass through moonlit areas in the mansion (or mansions, plural, if there were multiple mansions in the game) where the game takes place? If so, how would the werewolf element play into the usual ghostbusting element of the Luigi's Mansion series? And would the game be called Luigi's Mansion: The Lycan Curse if it had actually been conceived?

Finally, would we then perhaps have seen a Wario game inspired by Sonic and the Black Knight where Wario would be transported to a medieval setting during a routine treasure hunt gone awry, take up a sword and other medieval weaponry whilst fighting against knights, dragons, and other medieval uglies while he tries to a find a way home? Would it have been called Wario Warrior as a clever nod to Dragon Quest's original English name, Dragon Warrior? Subsequently, what improvements would the game make in the story and gameplay where Sonic and the Black Knight went wrong?

 

[Knuckles The Echidna]

Sega is a good video game company too and Sonic is overall a good and classic franchise but I think if Nintendo had followed Sega's direction toward the 2000s it would have been all over the place, with some things being good and others being complete disasters, like what happened with Sonic during those years. Personally though, despite all the mistakes Sega has made with the Sonic franchise at times, I think it's still a good franchise, and even the stuff that wasn't so good with Sonic I enjoy. But yeah. If Nintendo followed Sega's direction during the 2000s, it would have been somewhat chaotic.

 

[Tepig]

If Nintendo had gone the SEGA route, they would also step down from being First-Party developers. What would've happened if Sonic became more popular than Mario and Nintendo didn't make any new consoles?

 

[Knuckles The Echidna]

@Tepig I personally don't think such a thing is possible because Sonic has always been less popular than Mario partly (or maybe largely) because Mario was on the scene way earlier, with Mario coming out in the early 80s and Sonic not coming out until 1991.

 

[Mcmadness]

I mean the problem wasn't that Sonic was doing gimmicky things. The problem was that the games just weren't very good or fun to play.

 

[Knuckles The Echidna]

I mean the problem wasn't that Sonic was doing gimmicky things. The problem was that the games just weren't very good or fun to play.

I think Sonic '06 is probably the most infamous one from that time period. Objectively it's probably the worst Sonic game ever made. But at least it's fun to watch complete playthroughs of it and laugh at all the glitchy gameplay.

 

[Wittgenstein]

There are some things I wish Mario would take cues from Sonic on. Namely, Sonic has more serious and ambitious stories in a lot of his mainline games, while Mario avoids this in his biggest hitters. I think the Mario RPGs are a look into the potential the Mario universe has for that kind of stuff, and I'm well known for considering (most of) them my favorite entries in the franchise for that reason. So if they did that kind of thing but in the games that reach more people, it could go incredibly hard. Most people don't think Mario is capable of having more serious stories, and won't ever be exposed to the games that prove that sentiment wrong (unless a mainline game does it).

Do I think it should also force awkward gameplay gimmicks or release unfinished messes? Nah pass on that. But if other mascot platformers can have serious stories in their mainline games so can Mario. At least give it a chance, I know a lot of people are skeptical that it'll never work but i don't think it's that cut and dry at all.

 

[Xiahou Ba]

Most people don't think Mario is capable of having more serious stories, and won't ever be exposed to the games that prove that sentiment wrong (unless a mainline game does it).

Hi, I'm a person who think Mario is incapable of having more "serious" stories (I use the term "serious" very loosely because we're talking "seriously" in terms of E-rated, 6+ rated storylines here) simply because the franchise is not built for it, period.

 

[Knuckles The Echidna]

@Xiahou Ba I'd rather Mario stay the way it is too. Making it more serious and gritty just wouldn't feel to me like Mario and as much as as an adult I like serious and gritty stuff a lot I also want some lighthearted stuff I enjoy too and Mario is perfect for that. I like to have balance and variety with my entertainment.

 

[Xiahou Ba]

To be fair, "serious" doesn't necessarily involve grimdark themes. "Serious" in this context can mean a greater stakes plot with a greater emotional punch, like for example, one of your own allies betraying you and siding with the enemy because your allies has been killing people that share his surname not alluding to anything at all or this great evil has been unleashed on this world and you have to grab a sword that takes you 7 years in the future to dispatch that guy and many things happen in these 7 years also not alluding to anything at all. This isn't the type of thing Mario is equipped to handle at all, just because of how deliberately gutted characters and narratives are in order to make the game have a pick-up-and-play nature that families can play. That's just the modicum this franchise operates in.

Need to bring up the fact that the staff for Paper Mario 64 deliberately went out of their to exclude darker elements like betrayal to make their game stand out among other RPGs.

If you ask me what I want from Mario in terms of narrative? I want better characters. I want the main cast expanded on. I want their personalities expanded. I want them to actually talk to each other. I want characters like Waluigi and Yoshi actually talk to each other. Fortune Street did this and it was a delight, I want to see more of that in games like Mario Kart.

 

[Knuckles The Echidna]

@Xiahou Ba For me Mario is fine the way it is currently but yeah if Nintendo added more of those things I'd like that too actually.

 

[Xiahou Dun]

Hi, I'm a person who think Mario is incapable of having more "serious" stories (I use the term "serious" very loosely because we're talking "seriously" in terms of E-rated, 6+ rated storylines here) simply because the franchise is not built for it, period.

They tried to do this with Brothership but from the impressions of players, the game's foundations simply cannot sustain anything longer than 25ish hours of gameplay. If you want a deeper game with a deeper story that lasts as long as Brothership you'll likely have to introduce more complexity in your gameplay first, which runs against Mario's gameplay philosophy of simplicity and straightforward. It's not going to happen, and attempts to balance Mario's current gameplay structure with lengthy stories will be really difficult without padding out the game and making it really repetitive, which was a common criticism of Brothership and Dream Team.

 

[Wittgenstein]

I want better characters.

See I've always seen story and characters as going hand in hand. You can't have a good story without good characters, and often times I grow more attached to characters that are involved in a more elaborate story. That's why I've been so obsessed with the characters from the Mario RPGs for a decade and a half. They scratch an itch that the main cast usually doesn't (and when they do, it's also in the RPGs ironically). I agree with giving the main cast more to latch on to but I think doing that while keeping the story a complete afterthought is an extremely tall ask. If I don't like the story I'm just inherently less inclined to have a serious attachment to the characters. Not every game needs an elaborate story, but I don't agree with the notion that mainline Mario has an inherent need to keep itself clean of the very thought at all costs. A mainline Mario game with the stakes and lore comparable to Super Paper Mario WOULD be a difficult task. But it's not an impossible one, and if it was pulled off, while still having excellent gameplay it would EASILY become my favorite entry.

Having a less typical* story can also open up new gameplay possibilities. For example Odyssey gave us a tease of how Bowser could work as a playable character in a 3D Mario, but we'll never get this in a bigger capacity as long as he's occupied filling the status quo as the villain. That's another thing Sonic is more known for- having multiple playable characters with wildly different playstyles (and the villains are often among them). But Mario has also not been a stranger to it, 64 DS did it and was rough around the edges, but I feel like that's more a reason to try again than to just avoid it entirely going forward.

*typical in terms of the Mario status quo, not in terms of general storytelling tropes

 

[Xiahou Ba]

I agree with giving the main cast more to latch on to but I think doing that while keeping the story a complete afterthought is an extremely tall ask.

This isn't a really unsurmountable task, and I will elaborate: here's what I'll do if I wanted a character-expanded Mario platformer while not having too much focus on story.

• To keep things simple, we'll restrict this to the playable cast of Super Mario Bros. Wonder. This means, Mario, Luigi, Peach, Daisy, Blue Toad, Yellow Toad, Toadette, the Yoshis, and Nabbit. The plot would practically be the same: Bowser wrecks havoc as Castle Bowser. Plus, I'll avoid having elaborately animated lengthier than average cutscenes regarding the characters so gameplay doesn't come to a halt when you complete levels (I think they should, and the cutscenes are entirely skippable)
• Each world has an optional hub where the playable characters will set up camp, and you can chat with them ie you're using Mario and you can chat with others. All of this is optional, so players can complete the game without even entering the hub. You can swap the playable characters here or through the traditional menu. Each world brings unique dialogue to each playable character, they'll comment on Sunbaked Desert or Shining Falls and, depending on progress of the story, perhaps talk about the boss fight that you were in or the level you just beat, and each playable character has specific dialogue depending on who you're playing as. The colored Toads and Yoshis have their own personalities, and their animations are unique to them to compensate.
• Friendly NPCs and travelers can visit the camp, and they can comment on the playable characters themselves, to reveal about the playable characters.
• Mario and Luigi talk. There's no excuse to not have them talk in at least text boxes. Full voice acting is a bonus.
• Each character will reveal their own goals and motivations for this adventure, and it's revealed through their dialogue. This entails in multiple sidequests that you can complete for a character that'll take place of "collect all three 10-coins per level". For example, Nabbit is greedy and wants to collect coins, you'll satisfy his objective if you collect all the 10 flower coins. Toad wants you to collect a specific level's specific 1-Up Mushroom (taken inspiration from Captain Toad's collect the 1-Up Mushroom objective). Peach will want a standee collection and it's up to you to complete it. This is littered with many smaller objectives, like collect 10 coins in the level because Toadette wants to buy a painting. Their dialogue and what they think of you will change during the course of the story and depends on how much objectives you complete for them.
• Characters have unique camp designs in the camp, depending on their character traits (ie Luigi's camp is green and contains references to Luigi's Mansion as well as little subtle nods that tell more about his character, like how neatly his camp is set up compared to Mario, who may have food leftovers), and it'll upgrade depending on how much objectives you complete for them. Like for the Toadette example, if you fulfill her 10 coins objective in this one level, you'll see that painting appear in her camp.
• Sometimes, characters go missing from the camp, and you can ask another character to go find him in a specific level, optionally.
• Characters can be dressed in the last power-up you achieved the level with, and sometimes, they talk about that power-up. This is unique to each character.
• Recently acquired badges can also have a chance to be mentioned by a character.
• Characters can form bonds with you if you complete your objectives and they'll give you rewards specific to them. It is shared across all playable characters to not make things tedious for each pair.
• Each playable character has their own theme song upon beating a level. They also get unique theme songs in the credits. Completing all objectives at camp also changes the ending credits, and you'll get a scene depending on who has the biggest bond with you (randomized if everyone is maxed out).

Bear in mind, this is just the tip of the iceberg and me just brainstorming ideas, inspired from other games that has a much bigger character focus, if I were in charge and my task specifically was to create a Mario game with more expanded characters without having much more emphasis on story. If I wanted Nintendo to like, fully embrace how much budget and time they actually have to make such a Mario game than just the bare essentials targeted at casual grandmas buying a Mario game for their children, they can go even further than this.