Can Town (The Official Homestuck Thread)

[Nabber]

caliborn and karkat are two completely different characters... karkat is someone who's has people's best interests but isn't good at expressing himself and is just really grumpy a lot. caliborn just hates everyone, except people that he likes to fetishize in some way

 

[SiFi]

Yes but I think Edo is unable to get past his prejudice against him in the same way he's probably totally right about that being the case for me and Karkat.

 

[Lin Beifong]

The reason why you struggle is because you have already decided you hate the character. Therefore your mind will not let you accept anything that defines Karkat's character beyond him being loud, because it will upset the status-quo it has created for itself: "Karkat is angry and there's nothing else to him, because all trolls are and will forever be dumb and one-dimensional."

Yeah but aren't you treating Caliborn the same way.

No.

If Caliborn were to express something beyond being an obnoxious asshole, something that actually allowed me to get invested in him as a character somehow, I would not reject him. But I feel there is nothing beyond his sadism and entitled posturing. I'm going to be generous and say "yet", because it is technically still possible that Hussie will somehow make him more relatable. It's extremely unlikely, but possible.

If someone was able to present me a coherent, plausible reason why Caliborn is an interesting, agreeable character and someone I should root for, I would reconsider my distaste of him.

 

[Nabber]

i find caliborn is nice for a few chuckles in the comic relief category, but considering he's supposed to be the main villain, i find myself pretty disappointed.

 

[Lin Beifong]

There are a few things he says and does that are funny, or have at least some comedic value, but for me, these moments are eclipsed by just general awfulness.

And beyond that he doesn't really have much going on either. He's a creature born into unfathomable power, having all of his "accomplishments" just handed to him, entitled to rule, entitled to dominate by birthright, invincible, indestructible, inevitable.

Like, if there's anything beyond him than "he is sometimes funny" and "he is overpowered", please tell me. I mean really, I genuinely, unsarcastically want to know if there is something about him that I'm just not seeing.

 

[SiFi]

It's extremely unlikely

See it's things like that that make you give off the same impression. You've made your hatred for Caliborn abundantly clear, and any time there's been an opportunity to bring him up, you've done so and insulted him, and every time he's appeared in the story, whatever he's done has made you hate him more, and you dread any further appearances because you're expecting more of the same. You're not expecting Andrew Hussie, who is known for the unexpected, to turn that around, and I think that even if that curveball is thrown you'll probably continue to hate him.

I'm not as attentive as some to this story but I think I can still give him some more depth than what you see in him: He's jealous of his sister's creativity and probably the admiration it gets from the Post-Scratch kids, but because he's a red-blooded Cherub (and one with a mental disability at that) it's in his nature to destroy. His hatred towards Andrew Hussie is probably the same deal: He's woven such a complex and original story that Caliborn struggles to imitate, and he is recognized and adored for it by the immense fandom, which just so happens to be personified in-story by the character he hates the most.

I think he feels like that Paradox Space has dealt him a crappy hand and he wants to take revenge for that.

 

[SiFi]

I know you're already posting because I saw "who's online" but I think I can say it better: Caliborn, while probably not as complex as Karkat, has a similar dual nature, I think. Karkat's concern for others leads him to treat them like shit, and Caliborn's desire to create leads him to destroy, and both are due to psychological hangups. But in Caliborn's case I don't think it's been explored more deeply than "he interrupted his race's puberty and stopped himself from growing up"

 

[Nabber]

There are a few things he says and does that are funny, or have at least some comedic value, but for me, these moments are eclipsed by just general awfulness.

And beyond that he doesn't really have much going on either. He's a creature born into unfathomable power, having all of his "accomplishments" just handed to him, entitled to rule, entitled to dominate by birthright, invincible, indestructible, inevitable.

Like, if there's anything beyond him than "he is sometimes funny" and "he is overpowered", please tell me. I mean really, I genuinely, unsarcastically want to know if there is something about him that I'm just not seeing.

i'm pretty sure the whole point of his character is to aggravate you, so if you hate him, he's doing his job.

 

[SiFi]

He is meant to represent the story's hatedom, so it's possible that Andrew's trying to create a metaphor for the fandom (Calliope) enjoying the comic and the experience it provides and the hatedom (guess who) being all "grr stop having fun" because secretly he's just jealous. I'm not saying it's what I believe, but it's totally possible that Andrew thinks that the hatedom is just jealous and so he's trying to reflect that with Caliborn.

 

[Dr. Javelin]

i just fine caliborn routinely funny so i enjoy his character

 

[SiFi]

Can I just say how I can still tell from "who's online" that Edo's clearly making a long post and that is making me scared.

 

[EctoBiologist]

Can I just say how I can still tell from "who's online" that Edo's clearly making a long post and that is making me scared.

or maybe he's just making a short post.

the unexpected happen and you ruined your pants.

 

[SiFi]

I've realized something. From the start, Homestuck was meant to have Earthbound parallels, with the four kids and the title and suchlike. Maybe Caliborn is supposed to be Porky? I mean the way I see Porky is he just doesn't understand why people like Ness but despise him and eventually he decides "if the universe doesn't like me then the universe can go to hell". Anyone who knows Earthbound better than me: Does that sound right?

 

[EctoBiologist]

I've realized something. From the start, Homestuck was meant to have Earthbound parallels, with the four kids and the title and suchlike. Maybe Caliborn is supposed to be Porky? I mean the way I see Porky is he just doesn't understand why people like Ness but despise him and eventually he decides "if the universe doesn't like me then the universe can go to hell". Anyone who knows Earthbound better than me: Does that sound right?

Yes it does.

Even porky and caliborn have their own henchmen

 

[SiFi]

Edo is no longer online but none of us are safe he is waiting for the right moment to strike I'm telling you he is dangerous

 

[Lin Beifong]

Edo is no longer online but none of us are safe he is waiting for the right moment to strike I'm telling you he is dangerous

The list must have dropped me because I'm taking my sweet-ass time typing or something. <_>



No, there is a huge difference. Just because I hate him does not mean I am incapable of changing my opinion, and me saying that I don't expect such a curveball does nothing to mitigate that (in fact, I totally welcome that. I loved it whenever Hussie did that and outcomes that were previously thought impossible were suddenly trivially easy to accomplish). I do routinely re-evaluate my opinion of characters once their story progresses, and characters I disliked have turned into characters I liked on numerous occasions.

An example of this would be Mai from Avatar: The Last Airbender. The first time she appeared, I didn't like her because I thought she was boring and needlessly callous. My dislike for her continued through the series. But then the authors decided to give her a bit more time in the spotlight, and threw in some character development, and these events made me warm up to her.

See, my opinions of characters can be strong and vocal, but they are never set in stone. If Hussie decided to throw some of that treatment down Caliborn's way, I would give him another chance. I can say this with the utmost of confidence.

For me, liking characters all depends on how relatable and accessible they are for me. If I get insight in a character's thought process and find myself thinking "I understand", or "Yeah, this is something I might have done too in that situation", chances are I will like them on some level. Karkat does that for me. Mai didn't but then ended up doing it too. So did Terezi, who I ALSO disliked at first, but then grew to like.

And I see your characterization for Caliborn and I do acknowledge it as something that makes sense. I also appreciate that you actually bothered to give me a counter-analysis of a character I dislike instead of just yelling "hurr, you dislike this character for no reason because u dumb".

But please look at what actions he decided to take based on these admittedly unfortunate shortcomings. He killed his own sister. He erased people from existence that were just hanging out in the afterlife, not even bothering him. He completely and utterly perverted a peaceful alien society into a nightmarish, battle-torn hellhole. And he does not show a sliver of remorse for any of these atrocities. I don't see a way for me to reasonably root for or relate to someone like that. Which I think is a pretty understandable reaction.

So in essence, my dislike does not come from forming a narrow opinion and then rejecting everything that does not agree with it. I looked at the character in his entirety (that is available now), weigh all relevant pieces against each other, see how they compare to my preferences in characters, and THEN I determine whether I like the character or not. If a new piece comes along, I do it AGAIN to make sure my opinion is up to date.

This readiness to re-evaluate and adjust my opinions based on the evidence presented to me makes me confident in saying that I am not prejudiced against Caliborn, or any fictional character in general.



And now I need to catch up with what has happened while I was typing this.

 

[DragonFreak]

I've realized something. From the start, Homestuck was meant to have Earthbound parallels, with the four kids and the title and suchlike. Maybe Caliborn is supposed to be Porky? I mean the way I see Porky is he just doesn't understand why people like Ness but despise him and eventually he decides "if the universe doesn't like me then the universe can go to hell". Anyone who knows Earthbound better than me: Does that sound right?

Technically he is called Pokey in that game, but whatever (actually idk why i am even nitpicking here since I like to call him Porky in both games too). I kind of thought that Porky was evil because of Giygas while afair, Caliborn was never influenced by anything to be evil.

 

[Spamton G. Spamton]

I've realized something. From the start, Homestuck was meant to have Earthbound parallels, with the four kids and the title and suchlike. Maybe Caliborn is supposed to be Porky? I mean the way I see Porky is he just doesn't understand why people like Ness but despise him and eventually he decides "if the universe doesn't like me then the universe can go to hell". Anyone who knows Earthbound better than me: Does that sound right?

Technically he is called Pokey in that game, but whatever (actually idk why i am even nitpicking here since I like to call him Porky in both games too). I kind of thought that Porky was evil because of Giygas while afair, Caliborn was never influenced by anything to be evil.

And perhaps they will be defeated the same way?
Wouldn't that be great?

 

[Lin Beifong]

I've realized something. From the start, Homestuck was meant to have Earthbound parallels, with the four kids and the title and suchlike. Maybe Caliborn is supposed to be Porky? I mean the way I see Porky is he just doesn't understand why people like Ness but despise him and eventually he decides "if the universe doesn't like me then the universe can go to hell". Anyone who knows Earthbound better than me: Does that sound right?

Technically he is called Pokey in that game, but whatever (actually idk why i am even nitpicking here since I like to call him Porky in both games too). I kind of thought that Porky was evil because of Giygas while afair, Caliborn was never influenced by anything to be evil.

So you willingly call him Pokey, but you yelled at me when I called Mother 2 Earthbound?

Thats mean!

 

[DragonFreak]

I've realized something. From the start, Homestuck was meant to have Earthbound parallels, with the four kids and the title and suchlike. Maybe Caliborn is supposed to be Porky? I mean the way I see Porky is he just doesn't understand why people like Ness but despise him and eventually he decides "if the universe doesn't like me then the universe can go to hell". Anyone who knows Earthbound better than me: Does that sound right?

Technically he is called Pokey in that game, but whatever (actually idk why i am even nitpicking here since I like to call him Porky in both games too). I kind of thought that Porky was evil because of Giygas while afair, Caliborn was never influenced by anything to be evil.

And perhaps they will be defeated the same way?
Wouldn't that be great?

Spoiler: Mother 3 spoiler

You mean being trappped in somethng where they are absolutely safe and can never get out?
I would like to see Edo's reaction if that happens :P

I've realized something. From the start, Homestuck was meant to have Earthbound parallels, with the four kids and the title and suchlike. Maybe Caliborn is supposed to be Porky? I mean the way I see Porky is he just doesn't understand why people like Ness but despise him and eventually he decides "if the universe doesn't like me then the universe can go to hell". Anyone who knows Earthbound better than me: Does that sound right?

Technically he is called Pokey in that game, but whatever (actually idk why i am even nitpicking here since I like to call him Porky in both games too). I kind of thought that Porky was evil because of Giygas while afair, Caliborn was never influenced by anything to be evil.

So you willingly call him Pokey, but you yelled at me when I called Mother 2 Earthbound?

Thats mean!

But I knew his as Porky before Pokey. And I am a hypnocrite. Sorry.

 

[SiFi]

It's meant to be kind of ambiguous how much of Pokey being The Worst Person In The World is nature and how much is nurture.

Hey Edo yes you're right please don't hurt me but I just thought you saying "it's really unlikely that something will come along that helps me to reconsider caliborn" didn't help your case.

I've looked deeper into my troll hatred and it's most likely because of Andrew's questionable decision to focus on Hivebent for so long without taking a break. I most likely didn't pick up on certain details because I was in such a hurry get back to John and company that I was skimming through things. Nowadays Hussie knows not to do that, which is why Act 6 has so many intermissions where it returns to the other characters.

Out of curiosity Edo how do you feel about Porky and what if anything do you think makes him better than Caliborn?

 

[Spamton G. Spamton]

I've realized something. From the start, Homestuck was meant to have Earthbound parallels, with the four kids and the title and suchlike. Maybe Caliborn is supposed to be Porky? I mean the way I see Porky is he just doesn't understand why people like Ness but despise him and eventually he decides "if the universe doesn't like me then the universe can go to hell". Anyone who knows Earthbound better than me: Does that sound right?

Technically he is called Pokey in that game, but whatever (actually idk why i am even nitpicking here since I like to call him Porky in both games too). I kind of thought that Porky was evil because of Giygas while afair, Caliborn was never influenced by anything to be evil.

And perhaps they will be defeated the same way?
Wouldn't that be great?

Spoiler: Mother 3 spoiler

You mean being trappped in somethng where they are absolutely safe and can never get out?
I would like to see Edo's reaction if that happens :P

Exactly.
He would wear a tutu and dance on a chair joyfully.
The chair would most likely be me.

 

[DragonFreak]

IDK about that. I don't think he would see that as the best outcome in the world...

 

[SiFi]

I've thought of something that makes Porky better than Caliborn for me. With Porky, his negative love-to-hate traits seem more balanced, while with Caliborn, ever since Porrim theorized that having female minions made him a misogynist, the story's been beating us with the blunt end of said misogyny as it gradually eclipses his other traits, as if we're too stupid to realize that that's what he is.

 

[Lin Beifong]

Yeah, that was probably a silly thing to say. I sometimes get carried away.

And yes, when it happened I didn't like Hivebent either. I just wanted to go back to the main story where things were happening. I found it much easier to access during my second reading, because I already knew how the human story was going to proceed, so I didn't have a cliff-hanger gnawing on me at that time.

Porky is "better" than Caliborn because he is more developed, I guess.

Spoiler

Well, not in Mother 2, in there he is kind of an annoying brat. But in Mother 3 you get a bit more insight in his character. He spends the entirety of Mother 2 trying to antagonize Ness, but in Mother 3 you learn that he's been considering Ness to be his friend all along, and it is implied that the way he treated Ness is how he thought human interaction is supposed to work. Probably because his father is kind of a jerk who routinely hit him and his brother, or at least yelled at them a lot (depending on what version you play). Porky also clearly longs for the carefree days of his past, which he can never return to. He built several replicas and memorials of it in his city. None of these things really make you forgive him for any of the horrible things he did, but on some level you kind of feel sorry for the kid.

I guess the same thing could happen for Caliborn too if we were allowed to see something like what Porky showed us in Mother 3.