Random Blue
Tried too hard to be post-ironic
This could mean the "other souls" Edo mentioned could be the alpha kids, however...their souls got in there.
Can Town (The Official Homestuck Thread)
- Thread starter Master Crash
- Start date
So uh... I'm sorta confused with this horcrux thing.
In the future, Caliborn sucks John, Jade, Dave and Rose into the Sburb Juju, locks them in a chest, and hides the chest in the past in the furthest ring using the powers of the Ring of Void.
Vriska & co find the Sburb Juju chest in the (retconned?) past. John sticks his hand into the Juju, which is now acting like a window into the story; he then gains the retcon powers (which seems to be a combination of future-John, Jade, Dave and Rose's aspect and/or class powers) and disappears with the Juju, however only John reappears - what happened to the Juju and the future souls is unknown. (Although, since Dirk also has Yaldabaoth as his denizen, perhaps he can get another copy of the Juju from which the souls can be extracted; whether John will still have his retcon powers then upon being released is yet to be see, but my guess will be no.)
Meanwhile in the future, Dave uses his prince of Heart powers to suck Caliborn, ARquiussprite and half of Gamzee's souls into his (i.e. the B2 universe's) Lil Cal (who he had dropped into the ocean, where it rested for millennia, until he was unearthed and given to Caliborn (who lived on the B2 Earth long after Dirk's time, and remained on that Earth / the Land of Colours and Mayhem for his dead Sburb session), who kept him with him until this battle). Roxy then uses her own Void powers to send the ensouled Lil' Cal away.
But while Caliborn decided where the Sburb Juju went, Roxy doesn't control where Lil Cal and all the souls within him go - instead, Lil Cal appears into different universes and Caliborn eventually pops out (now going by "Lord English"), time travels to the beginning of time for the universe, and eventually destroys it, before popping back into the Void and reappearing in another Universe as Lil Cal. As he goes universe to universe, he grows bigger and buffer thanks to Equius's soul being part of him now; he also Honks thanks to Gamzee's half-soul component; his time powers are from being a Lord of Time, and similarly, his explodey pool-eye clockwork powers are something he got for himself while he was still regular lil' juvenile Caliborn playing Sburb. (But I think his destructive abilities could also be related to the usual power reserved for Cherub mating being granted to him despite being sexually stunted (due to never predominating over Calliope), possibly by Yaldaboath.)
Eventually, he gets into the B1 universe via Lil Cal being appeared into Dave's dream by Gamzee (presumably, it works similar ways in other universes too). This Lil Cal winds up in John's ectobiology lab when he clones the kids, and is sent through a portal to Earth with Baby Dirk. In the B1 universe, he eventually gets ripped apart, put back together and taken as a trophy by Jack, who eventually throws him at an Aradiabot when he attacks the Trolls at the end of their session. The Aradiabot is sent to the past where it and Lil cal are found by past-Aradia, who has Kanaya fix him back up again - at which point, Kanaya also fits him with a snappy green suit. The Black Queen of the Troll session later clones the green-suited Lil Cal from this timeframe, along with a Cue Ball and the t1CK t0ck 8r8k H34DS honk HONK codes, to make Doc Scratch (who gets his laugh from Lil Cal and his smarts and mannerisms from Lil Hal/AR), who then serves as a host for Caliborn until he eventually emerges as Lord English and time travels back and starts wrecking the Troll's universe.
Now, I'm not sure if an ectobiological, first-guardian intermediary is always necessary for LE emergence, or if it can happen in non-Sburb session situations via regular Lil Cal, since the puppet itself is described as having the sinister soul presence in his own right. It might be a special case, since Doc Scratch being a First Guardian might be the reason why LE can get into Paradox Space, which he's never really done before by the sounds of it. But Doc Scratch's Cueball seeds are also said to be spread all around Paradox Space, implying they're needed for more than one emergence episode, in which case ectobiology is required for LE to pop out - not just raw Cals. More study is needed.
Anyway, meanwhile, after being cloned, green-suited Lil Cal eventually falls into Gamzee's possession, until he gives it to the B2 (post-scratch universe) Courtyard Droll, who gives him to the B2 Jack, who then takes his eyes and thus takes Caliborn/LE's explodey clockwork powers (and possibly the souls within the puppet too, making him the current LE host), breaks out of jail, explodes the Prospit Moon, and is then sent to the edge of the B2 Incipisphere by Jade, and we don't know what comes next for him yet.
And finally, due to the scratch, another copy of the Cal from John's ectobiology lab goes with Dirk to the B2 universe. This is the Cal which is eventually used in the battle with Caliborn, and until that point, goes not have any souls within him yet, due to there-can-be-only-one spacio-temporal Juju majicks.
Aaaaand I think that's the full story? At least, how I think it went down (i.e. no Felt Jujus = kid souls theory). Dunno if it helps make it clearer for you, tho - hopefully it does, but either way, I wanted to write it down for myself as well.
Vriska & co find the Sburb Juju chest in the (retconned?) past. John sticks his hand into the Juju, which is now acting like a window into the story; he then gains the retcon powers (which seems to be a combination of future-John, Jade, Dave and Rose's aspect and/or class powers) and disappears with the Juju, however only John reappears - what happened to the Juju and the future souls is unknown. (Although, since Dirk also has Yaldabaoth as his denizen, perhaps he can get another copy of the Juju from which the souls can be extracted; whether John will still have his retcon powers then upon being released is yet to be see, but my guess will be no.)
Meanwhile in the future, Dave uses his prince of Heart powers to suck Caliborn, ARquiussprite and half of Gamzee's souls into his (i.e. the B2 universe's) Lil Cal (who he had dropped into the ocean, where it rested for millennia, until he was unearthed and given to Caliborn (who lived on the B2 Earth long after Dirk's time, and remained on that Earth / the Land of Colours and Mayhem for his dead Sburb session), who kept him with him until this battle). Roxy then uses her own Void powers to send the ensouled Lil' Cal away.
But while Caliborn decided where the Sburb Juju went, Roxy doesn't control where Lil Cal and all the souls within him go - instead, Lil Cal appears into different universes and Caliborn eventually pops out (now going by "Lord English"), time travels to the beginning of time for the universe, and eventually destroys it, before popping back into the Void and reappearing in another Universe as Lil Cal. As he goes universe to universe, he grows bigger and buffer thanks to Equius's soul being part of him now; he also Honks thanks to Gamzee's half-soul component; his time powers are from being a Lord of Time, and similarly, his explodey pool-eye clockwork powers are something he got for himself while he was still regular lil' juvenile Caliborn playing Sburb. (But I think his destructive abilities could also be related to the usual power reserved for Cherub mating being granted to him despite being sexually stunted (due to never predominating over Calliope), possibly by Yaldaboath.)
Eventually, he gets into the B1 universe via Lil Cal being appeared into Dave's dream by Gamzee (presumably, it works similar ways in other universes too). This Lil Cal winds up in John's ectobiology lab when he clones the kids, and is sent through a portal to Earth with Baby Dirk. In the B1 universe, he eventually gets ripped apart, put back together and taken as a trophy by Jack, who eventually throws him at an Aradiabot when he attacks the Trolls at the end of their session. The Aradiabot is sent to the past where it and Lil cal are found by past-Aradia, who has Kanaya fix him back up again - at which point, Kanaya also fits him with a snappy green suit. The Black Queen of the Troll session later clones the green-suited Lil Cal from this timeframe, along with a Cue Ball and the t1CK t0ck 8r8k H34DS honk HONK codes, to make Doc Scratch (who gets his laugh from Lil Cal and his smarts and mannerisms from Lil Hal/AR), who then serves as a host for Caliborn until he eventually emerges as Lord English and time travels back and starts wrecking the Troll's universe.
Now, I'm not sure if an ectobiological, first-guardian intermediary is always necessary for LE emergence, or if it can happen in non-Sburb session situations via regular Lil Cal, since the puppet itself is described as having the sinister soul presence in his own right. It might be a special case, since Doc Scratch being a First Guardian might be the reason why LE can get into Paradox Space, which he's never really done before by the sounds of it. But Doc Scratch's Cueball seeds are also said to be spread all around Paradox Space, implying they're needed for more than one emergence episode, in which case ectobiology is required for LE to pop out - not just raw Cals. More study is needed.
Anyway, meanwhile, after being cloned, green-suited Lil Cal eventually falls into Gamzee's possession, until he gives it to the B2 (post-scratch universe) Courtyard Droll, who gives him to the B2 Jack, who then takes his eyes and thus takes Caliborn/LE's explodey clockwork powers (and possibly the souls within the puppet too, making him the current LE host), breaks out of jail, explodes the Prospit Moon, and is then sent to the edge of the B2 Incipisphere by Jade, and we don't know what comes next for him yet.
And finally, due to the scratch, another copy of the Cal from John's ectobiology lab goes with Dirk to the B2 universe. This is the Cal which is eventually used in the battle with Caliborn, and until that point, goes not have any souls within him yet, due to there-can-be-only-one spacio-temporal Juju majicks.
Aaaaand I think that's the full story? At least, how I think it went down (i.e. no Felt Jujus = kid souls theory). Dunno if it helps make it clearer for you, tho - hopefully it does, but either way, I wanted to write it down for myself as well.
Dr. Javelin
Nathan Latsk
We need a Lil Cal: Fast forward to now flash.
We're still not sure if the "Gamzee gives CD Cal" thing happens in the post-retcon timeline though.
I am very concerned with the fact that this post made sense to me.
And now we do. And my post got everything right so far (of what was shown), yay. ExceptSerra said:
but isn't he a god tier who managed to rig the god tier clock to become immortal 4everz
Random Blue
Tried too hard to be post-ironic
Which is why they need a glitch to get around that
Yeah, due to the scratch. One continued on being the cursed vessel that was eventually used to make Doc Scratch and birth LE, but the other became an empty shell (due to there-can-only-be-one juju magic, I think) when it went to the scratched B2 universe (where it eventually becomes LE-infused during the Vine battle of the future).
[quote author=Aranea]The tangled struggle 8etween the green aus is exceedingly 8rutal and can last for sweeps. While dueling in such a monstrous form, their energy is inexhausti8le. The transform8tion taps into the cheru8s' latent connection with the enigmatic forces presiding over all that is eternal, and perme8ting all those endowed with immortality. Normally this power is only accessi8le to them during m8ting. In this form, they are only a8le to 8e injured 8y one another, and are otherwise indestructi8le. Hence the ritual can never 8e stopped 8y an outside force until it is complete.[/quote]
Normally, he'd never get to be a great bloody sex snake since he stunted his growth by prematurely killing Callie instead of predominating over her during normal puberty, so now he's a man-child forever, but his Denizen (a great bloody snake) let him game the system and get the powers despite being stunted and not engaging in coitus at that or any other time. His periodic incestuous slips of the tongue also point towards the eventual showdown between the siblings (although it's also natural for Cherubs since their mating drive is fuelled by the hole left by their dead sibling and they seek out similar substitutes).
Also, it's been mentioned that the Cueball-infised Welsh sword is bad news for Caliborn, but that could always be a red herring - I'm not as sure about any of the Scratch/Cueball stuff just yet.
My theory is that he got granted the Cherub sex powers:Marowak said:
[quote author=Aranea]The tangled struggle 8etween the green aus is exceedingly 8rutal and can last for sweeps. While dueling in such a monstrous form, their energy is inexhausti8le. The transform8tion taps into the cheru8s' latent connection with the enigmatic forces presiding over all that is eternal, and perme8ting all those endowed with immortality. Normally this power is only accessi8le to them during m8ting. In this form, they are only a8le to 8e injured 8y one another, and are otherwise indestructi8le. Hence the ritual can never 8e stopped 8y an outside force until it is complete.[/quote]
Normally, he'd never get to be a great bloody sex snake since he stunted his growth by prematurely killing Callie instead of predominating over her during normal puberty, so now he's a man-child forever, but his Denizen (a great bloody snake) let him game the system and get the powers despite being stunted and not engaging in coitus at that or any other time. His periodic incestuous slips of the tongue also point towards the eventual showdown between the siblings (although it's also natural for Cherubs since their mating drive is fuelled by the hole left by their dead sibling and they seek out similar substitutes).
Also, it's been mentioned that the Cueball-infised Welsh sword is bad news for Caliborn, but that could always be a red herring - I'm not as sure about any of the Scratch/Cueball stuff just yet.
The implication of that would be that LE is in a permanent state of horniness. I... don't really want to think about that.
[me=Genji]unthinks that thought.[/me]
[me=Genji]unthinks that thought.[/me]
I remember back when Andrew had formspring someone asked him who the "Ed" in "Caledscratch" was supposed to be after the connection between Cal and Scratch was revealed and Andrew answered "your creepy uncle" and what the fuc he was serious auto responder is ed
although really the brobot is more of a surrogate brother to dirk than the ar for obvious reasons
edit: found it
although really the brobot is more of a surrogate brother to dirk than the ar for obvious reasons
edit: found it
Maybe he meant specifically Arquiussprite (sp?), because he fits the uncle thing AND is all about horses, and Mr. Ed is a pretty famous one.
Tyrell Badd
"The hated boss who beats you down..."
Chat Administrator
Retired Forum Mod
Retired Wiki Staff
'Shroom Consultant
- MarioWiki
- Gamefreak75
lel illumernati xDDDDD
Dr. Javelin
Nathan Latsk
I CALLED ITSerra said:
In a way there really is only one Cal....sort of.
For instance:
(1)Roxy banishes Dream!Cal (with English in it) into the void, it resurfaces inside Dave's Derse tower as Dream!Cal thanks Gamzee. Then two paths happen:
B1: Dream Cal ends up becoming real Cal who then journeys across B1 and A2 to make Doc Scratch, then is given to Alpha Jack in B2 to become Jack English.
B2: Dream Cal, for some reason becomes an empty vessel and spends time with Dirk before it falls into the ocean only to be recovered by Caliborn when the cherubs inhabit Earth, then it is used to store Lord English inside it, leading to (1).
Cal's journey begins as an empty vessel in B2, and ends (presumably) releasing English into Alpha Jack in B2.
As is typical of jujus, the fact that there are two is but an illusion.
For instance:
(1)Roxy banishes Dream!Cal (with English in it) into the void, it resurfaces inside Dave's Derse tower as Dream!Cal thanks Gamzee. Then two paths happen:
B1: Dream Cal ends up becoming real Cal who then journeys across B1 and A2 to make Doc Scratch, then is given to Alpha Jack in B2 to become Jack English.
B2: Dream Cal, for some reason becomes an empty vessel and spends time with Dirk before it falls into the ocean only to be recovered by Caliborn when the cherubs inhabit Earth, then it is used to store Lord English inside it, leading to (1).
Cal's journey begins as an empty vessel in B2, and ends (presumably) releasing English into Alpha Jack in B2.
As is typical of jujus, the fact that there are two is but an illusion.
Cal-Equius-Dirk-ScratchSiFi said:
Except the unaudgemted cueball blade required for fighting Cal is actually Caledfwlch, which is just another name for Excalibur/Caliburn - i.e. Caliborn's namesake, while Caledscratch was named for Dave's scratch associations due to his Time-turntables or whatever being used in the alchemy.
I wonder if Lil Cal being the host of the parasitoid responsible for killing the frog-verses was part of the plan from the very beginning, or if it came a bit later, like how the Trolls were originally just a few anonymous Internet freaks and then became central cast members. Hussie is a wiz at both retconning things into the bigger picture and planning super ahead, so it's hard to say. There were only a couple times while reading that I could tell he shifted gears about a given idea and started setting stuff up. Like how the Pesterchum icons early on were just the regular happy and angry faces, before the symbols started being used instead once he committed to using 12 zodiac, hemospectrumed trolls; and on that note, Karkat using grey probably started off as a general "he is a troll and is different from the colour kids" idea, and then a reason why he was off-spectrum had to be backed in later; I can't remember other example(s) off the top of my head...
It's more like how getting stabbed with an Epi-pen gets you all hopped up on adrenaline even if you're not in a physical situation that would normally get your body making its own adrenaline.Genji said:
Also, another thing that occurred to me is that Caliborn's clockwork magic pool eyes thing is separate from the immortality stuff, since he has it before he defeats Yaldabaoth - although Aranea also said she didn't know how the Denizen would grant him the power in the first place, and it was just shown that he got the Juju from defeating him, so maybe she got it backwards. Or making the Choice (and defeating Yaldabaoth) simply leads to the circumstances of Caliborn's immortality - i.e. getting soul-infused with a ghost, a sprite, an unkillable clown and a similarly resilient puppet, although even with all those guys, the destructive power's still not explained so I still think the sex powers are involved one way or another. One things for sure: I REALLY want to know how Caliborn got his pool eyes.
Walkazo said:
Well yeah you can take it literally like that, but the question was a response to Andrew himself pointing out that Caledscratch's name could be seen as a hint towards the then-recent twist revealing Scratch's ectobiological origins.
But everything has just been pulled back onto the track and makes perfect sense. The only question left about LE is how Caliborn gets the pool-eyes clock magic - and of course, what happens next to everyone... Marowak went over it once and I did a longer summary about Lil Cal's history too, but slightly different order since the Flash wasn't out yet, and with speculation about other stuff as well.
Mind = Blown
Omg yes, his origin was the Scratch!!!!!Marowak said:
Also, I was bored, so here' a visual of Lil Cal's harrowing journey (simplified). Green innards means he's got the souls in him; yellow parts are where the story's still ambiguous about whether the Doc Scratch-born LE or the possible Jack Noir host are earlier in Caliborn's timeline. Apologies for bad handwriting.
