Can Town (The Official Homestuck Thread)

[Spamton G. Spamton]

Because i was bored as hell too, I made a shitty diagram thingy of Cal's journey. It's not as detailed as Walks' but here it is anyway.

 

[Lin Beifong]

Pretty cute update. I actually really liked it.

Especially how the retcon affected Gamzee's shenanigans.

 

[Nabber]

aww that was really cute. i miss that kind of stuff. man homestuck really needs to lighten up sometimes

 

[Spamton G. Spamton]

DONT LET YOUR GUARDS DOWN

 

[Contra(dictory)]

davekat confirmed

 

[Walkazo]

Omg soooo cute. And I love "Moonsetter" - very happy to see it used in the comic.

I guess this means there was no treasure hunt for the House Juju, but that just means it'll be intact for soul-extraction in this timeline. Despite my usual dislike of change-the-past timetravel, I have to admit, the changed timeline is so much happier, and everything seems to be slotting together nicely. Although I wonder if Davesprite from the retconned timeline is on LOWAS like Jasperssprite, or if he's just gone forever. For that matter, are there now going to be two Jasperssprites? And what did Vriska do about the other seizurekernel prototyping?

Especially how the retcon affected Gamzee's shenanigans.

Yeah, although I feel like he still might eventually do the Cod Tier thing, in order for Caliborn and Calliope's upbringing, Caliborn's session, and the creation of Union Jack to still happen.

 

[2257]

i wouldnt be that surprised if one of the powers of a lord of time is to exist despite being from a timeline that never happened

 

[Lin Beifong]

Yeah, although I feel like he still might eventually do the Cod Tier thing, in order for Caliborn and Calliope's upbringing, Caliborn's session, and the creation of Union Jack to still happen.

There's always multiple ways to interpret stories that are told without dialogue and only pictures, so take this with a grain of salt. But in the set of images there is one where Gamzee and Kurloz are "talking", with Gamzee saying something about Vriska.

To me, the scene looks like this iteration of Gamzee, instead of being scheming and in control, is a pathetic screwup who is kept on a tight leash by Vriska (you actually see him with an 8 ball footcuff at one point). I read the scene as Gamzee explaining to Kurloz that he is unable to do anything to serve their messiahs because he's kept under Vriska's boot, and Kurloz being annoyed/disappointed/disgusted by what an ineffectual, incompetent loser his dancestor is.

Could just be me misinterpreting things, but it looks to me like failing to frame Vriska for his murders and getting her killed, failing to establish a relationship with Terezi, and subsequently being humiliated by both of them did a number on his confidence. He doesn't seem nearly as cocksure and sinister as he did at that point in time pre-retcon.

 

[Walkazo]

Well yeah, I interpreted it that way too, but just because he couldn't do anything during the flight to the B2 session doesn't mean that once they get there and Vriska's busy with Jade and whatnot, he scampers off. I suppose Vriska could have passed Lil Cal along to CD to ensure that Union Jack blows up Jane and Jake, like how she masterminds the prototyping this time around, but I'd be really surprised if the Cherubs in this timeline were not the ones influenced by Gamzee.

 

[2257]

why would you be surprised

 

[Walkazo]

Because John's powers were unique: Caliborn gets immortality and the powers of destruction, not rule-breaking retcon powers. So if the timeline doesn't happen than he doesn't happen, and he very much happens. He also couldn't be from a Doomed timeline because then him being doomed would be a foregone conclusion - that'd be boring.

 

[Random Blue]

the Cueball-infised Welsh sword

Wasn't that the 'legendary piece of shit'?

 

[Dr. Javelin]

Well yeah, I interpreted it that way too, but just because he couldn't do anything during the flight to the B2 session doesn't mean that once they get there and Vriska's busy with Jade and whatnot, he scampers off. I suppose Vriska could have passed Lil Cal along to CD to ensure that Union Jack blows up Jane and Jake, like how she masterminds the prototyping this time around, but I'd be really surprised if the Cherubs in this timeline were not the ones influenced by Gamzee.

who's to say vriska doesn't create lord english/caliborn the same way she created jack noir

 

[Walkazo]

If it were Vriska all along instead of Gamzee, LE wouldn't "honk" like him as he wouldn't be present in the Vine battle as part of his helping Caliborn calling. Unless she was mind-controlling him to do all that all along or something. However now that you mention the last Jack she built up, her being the one to give Lil Cal to CD to make Union Jack seems a lot more likely (whether he's dangrous enough on his own or if LE comes bursting out of him has yet to be seen: either way, she gets her glorious fight).

the Cueball-infised Welsh sword

Wasn't that the 'legendary piece of shit'?

I thin so. That's why Dave upgraded it to Caledscratch and was thoroughly unimpressed when Jade had him alchemize a new Caledfwlch, iirc.

 

[DragonFreak]

I remember when i thought Lil' Cal was so cool. They grow up so evil so fast :')

Also did you people see the horses on the calendar? Soon to be new HS almost every weekday. Whoooooo.

 

[Random Blue]

It would make sense if his Welsh sword was actually an ultimate weapon then, I guess, given the emphasis on it being shit. Doesn't seem glitchy enough to kill LE, though. maybe the glitch is it isnt shit

 

[SiFi]

my ideal shipping chart would involve vriska and kanaya both dying alone but if them being together keeps the latter away from rose then why not

also vriska solving rose's drinking problem with a stern talking to leaves a bad taste in my mouth. i'm not saying rose could overcome it on her own but having vriska of all people as the good authority figure role model she needed just seems so wrong to me

 

[Lin Beifong]

So if the timeline doesn't happen than he doesn't happen,

i don't think that's a safe conclusion to draw. vriska survived being rendered historically impossible by john and then met the version of herself that terezi didn't kill. if she can do it, i see no basis for asserting that caliborn definitely can't. it's probably equally wrong to assert that he definitely can, but it seems to me that of the two possibilities, it's more likely that he can

I pretty much agree. It has to be kept in mind that this is not just a simple alpha timeline versus doomed offshot scenario. This is an entirely unprecedented situation that breaks the laws of time we have thus far known.

According to what we know, the timeline we have been following has for the most part been the alpha timeline. We don't know what John's shenanigans have done exactly, and as of yet we do not have the tools to accurately discern it either. It is possible John took the alpha timeline's alpha status and transferred it to a new timeline of his own making. It is equally possible that there now exist two alpha timelines, closely interwoven and accommodated to each other, with both of them being equally valid to paradox space. If that was the case, Caliborn would still be a valid entity and would not have to be recreated again. Incidentally, this would also explain how dead Vriska is still existent despite being impossible in the new timeline.

also vriska solving rose's drinking problem with a stern talking to leaves a bad taste in my mouth. i'm not saying rose could overcome it on her own but having vriska of all people as the good authority figure role model she needed just seems so wrong to me

I thought that was kind of silly too. But if you think about it for a while, Vriska has always been about min-maxing herself and trying to get others to do the same. It's possible her preventing Rose from getting drunk is just a matter of efficiency. It's also possible that not needing to have any irons in the fire for three years helped her to chill out and connect to her peers better, and her actions are a mixture of concern AND trying to min-max her allies.



After rewatching the flash again, there is one thing I don't understand. What exactly is the interaction between Vriska and Dirk about? Like, what is Vriska insinuating and why is it making Dirk uncomfortable?

 

[2257]

i'm pretty sure vriska is just suggesting the creation of arquiusprite, considering that that's the moment at which he was originally created and she's holding equius's head. dirk is probably uncomfortable because it's a bizarre suggestion from a troll he's most likely never even met before

also, i think that knocking the booze out of rose's hand was more about ensuring that her date with kanaya would go well than min-maxing. iirc that was the first time rose actually drank, so it wouldnt have been apparent that she would become an alcoholic. it would have been apparent that rose behaving like a drunken idiot on her first date would not make a good impression. considering vriska's apparently excited reaction when she saw rose and kanaya reading the love book (and her obliviousness to kanaya's feelings towards her), i wouldnt be surprised if she wants them to be together

i guess it's also possible vriska just disapproves of alcohol in general for some reason

 

[Nabber]

okay so according to the new horse calendars, a6a6i5 is going to go all the way into july

...why did he ever think he'd finish this by the end of last year. or two years ago? i can't even remember when homestuck was originally supposed to end

 

[Walkazo]

Plans change: projects have a habit of getting more ambitious and large-scale as time goes on, plus it's very easy to underestimate how long stuff will take in general, especially if life throws you extra concerns to juggle along the way.

So if the timeline doesn't happen than he doesn't happen,

i don't think that's a safe conclusion to draw. vriska survived being rendered historically impossible by john and then met the version of herself that terezi didn't kill. if she can do it, i see no basis for asserting that caliborn definitely can't. it's probably equally wrong to assert that he definitely can, but it seems to me that of the two possibilities, it's more likely that he can

I pretty much agree. It has to be kept in mind that this is not just a simple alpha timeline versus doomed offshot scenario. This is an entirely unprecedented situation that breaks the laws of time we have thus far known.

According to what we know, the timeline we have been following has for the most part been the alpha timeline. We don't know what John's shenanigans have done exactly, and as of yet we do not have the tools to accurately discern it either. It is possible John took the alpha timeline's alpha status and transferred it to a new timeline of his own making. It is equally possible that there now exist two alpha timelines, closely interwoven and accommodated to each other, with both of them being equally valid to paradox space. If that was the case, Caliborn would still be a valid entity and would not have to be recreated again. Incidentally, this would also explain how dead Vriska is still existent despite being impossible in the new timeline.

That's Aranea... Check the hair length and the fact that all the other dancestors are pictured somewhere but her.

There's two ways to interpret it: one, it was always a doomed timeline and jokes on us for thinking it was the alpha timeline all along. Or two, there was only ever one timeline and there still is only one - it's just different now, but the "now" has to be thought of not in terms of the timeline's time, but in our outside perception of the story's reality.

Spoiler: waste of time tangent about multidimensional thinking or something

Picture the story as a tree, where the base is earlier in time, and as you move up the trunk, time spools along. Regular time travel means that when you go back in time, whatever you do was always part of the past (the knots and cracks in the bark were always there as far as you're concerned as you slide along the trunk), and if it wasn't, it splits you off from the alpha timeline trunk into a doomed timeline branch that extends from the trunk for a bit and then ends. But John changes where the tree is growing without causing a branch to break off - by bending the trunk itself. Of course, now we know that the way the trunk was growing wasn't the right way to begin with: the tree was crooked, like a doomed timeline branch, and so John's time travel was necessary to make it grow straight - and the initial crooked path was necessary to get John to gain the retcon powers and go back and be able to bend the trunk. But once he bends the tree, the path that led him there no longer exists: the path the trunk had grown is now open air. Viewing it from the outside of the story, we know there was a change, but remember that the story's time is moving up and down the tree, not the tree's changing state - that's extradimensional: from within the story's reality, when you go up the trunk, all you know is the direction it takes when you experience it, and you wouldn't know the tree used to grow one way or another. There is no old or new timeline, there is just THE timeline. It's like if you read it for the first time now and see all the oil spots and arms all along and never know they weren't there all along; even the Terezi password points will be there all along for new readers, but like John, the readers still have to see the unaltered timeline to get to the point where he disconnects from the tree to set it straight. John (and Roxy and LOWAS) being disconnected from the tree at the point in which he bends the trunk is also the reason why they don't disappear despite the trunk no longer growing where they came from.

OR that's all a load of overthought hot air and really all that happened is that they hopped out of a dead doomed timeline branch and into the proper alpha timeline trunk that had been altered by John all along like normal time travel. If that were really Vriska, not Aranea, that'd be evidence that it's a normal doomed timeline, but if no ghosts show up, that's evidence for the complete retcon thing. Muse Calliope implied it was a regular doomed timeline (perhaps the one she hailed from in the absence of sawed-in-half Gamzee) while Dave said John's retcon powers were different - so either interpretation could be right until we get more info.

also vriska solving rose's drinking problem with a stern talking to leaves a bad taste in my mouth. i'm not saying rose could overcome it on her own but having vriska of all people as the good authority figure role model she needed just seems so wrong to me

Well, ultimately, the only person that can make someone to kick or avoid a bad habit is the person themself. Perhaps Vriska's actions made Rose realize that she doesn't need booze to be happy, but Rose still needed to realize that

 

[Spamton G. Spamton]

I'm pretty sure the fact that her hair is shorter is just due to the artist who drew her, who isn't hussie. Pretty sure the retcon is just a way to create a better alpha timeline, while the original alpha timeline still exists, perhaps doomed for the most part, but contributing to paradox space nevertheless. So it's like a privileged doomed timeline. This, as I said before, was implied by our meta guy: Dave.

DAVE: yeah messing with the alpha timeline
DAVE: i mean not the alpha timeline but the ALPHA alpha timeline

This would mean that the furthest ring isn't influenced by the retcon shenanigans. Meaning that there is only one "original" Aranea. Who died thanks to the mini tumor bomb, bla bla afterlife, came back to life, fucked up the alpha session and was double killed by The Condesce.

If the retcon powers made things "never happen", probably only John would continue to exist because we could consider him "uncanon", and maybe roxy because she made a deal with her denizen. But we clearly see that Jaspersprite, a mere sprite, is still alive and well and came along for the ride, presumably with the other sprites. Which is why i think the whole "retcon erases things from ever existing" is not whats going on.

This would also mean that Sollux and Aradia witnessed two versions of the meteor crew, which is weird.

 

[Lin Beifong]

That's Aranea... Check the hair length and the fact that all the other dancestors are pictured somewhere but her.

I'm sorry, I don't see it.

I checked the hair length, and I would say those braids are actually too long for Aranea. Aranea's hair is roughly shoulder length, maybe a bit more. I even did a mock-up to see if I'm just full of shit, but no, they still seem wayyy too long for Aranea.

I apologize to the artist for doing this to their beautiful, amazing artwork. I mean no disrespect.

Doesn't really fit.

If I extend the hair to be long enough to form those braids however...

...it doesn't really look like Aranea anymore. At least that's what I think.

I am pretty sure this is Vriska.

 

[Dr. Javelin]

it's not vriska because the person they're looking at/looking at them in the next image is very very clearly vriska

unless there are two vriskas

also, about the whole alpha/doomed timeline: a lot of people assume that the alpha timeline has to result in a win for the main cast - which i don't necessarily think is true. just because paradox space wills something doesn't mean it's ultimately what's good for our protagonists

 

[2257]

yes javvy, the whole point of what we were discussing is that there are two vriskas. that there are two of her is what makes her relevant to this discussion, which is originally about caliborn

one was killed by terezi, went on a ghost pirate adventure to find the house juju, then soured on being an adventurer when aranea betrayed them. she then changed her appearance to what she looks like now, and started an ambiguously romantic relationship with meenah

the terezi from that vriska's timeline decided that killing vriska (among other things) was a mistake, and sent john back in time to prevent it. the other vriska was created when john split the timeline by interfering in terezi's past. that vriska survived terezi's attack due to john's intervention and took a trip on the meteor to roxy's session. while on the way, she met the vriska from the timeline in which john never intervened

the point of this is that the two vriskas meeting demonstrates that whatever john did hasn't obliterated the contents of the original timeline, so without evidence to the contrary it's logical to believe that the caliborn of that timeline is still a threat. therefore, there's no reason to believe the present timeline has to have a native caliborn at all

my theory is that this time, vriska prevents gamzee from ever interacting with the cherubs. absent his influence, calliope predominates