Avatar: The Last Airbender + Legend of Korra
- Thread starter SonicMario
- Start date
GalacticPetey
Donkey Kong
Hopefully this shuts up any more people in denial.
Nah, they will just switch from denial to protest.
But we don't need to concern ourselves with that. This is our time of celebration.
But we don't need to concern ourselves with that. This is our time of celebration.
Man, that's the best thing I've read all day.
The posts themselves, because tumblr archives are a pain to use down the road imo, and also QFT:
It's nice to hear that the studio was even on board (to an extent), so they weren't just forced to sneak it all in, and the other behind-the-scenes stuff was also interesting. As a feminist and a bi-grey-asexual, I also really appreciated the part of Bryan's post about how he (and Miyazaki) doesn't agree with romance being the default be-all and end-all of every story; the ending scene between Korra and Mako makes more sense now, as a deliberately platonic conclusion to a girl-boy relationship built on mutual respect and support. But while seeing Korra and Asami as really good friends was great already, I'm glad they didn't keep that one platonic, and while it being clear yet unstated was already a victory, them stating it outright is even better. It's a wonderful show of progress and support for the LGBT(TQQIAAP) community; now the haters can't just pretend they're deniers (except by using the death of the author POV, I guess), and hopefully most of them will know to crawl back under their rocks, or who knows, maybe even accept the beautiful truth that is Korrasami.
The posts themselves, because tumblr archives are a pain to use down the road imo, and also QFT:
[quote author=Mike]Korrasami Confirmed
Now that Korra and Asamis final moment is out in the world, it seems like an appropriate time to express how I feel about it. I didnt want to say anything right away so the audience could experience the finale for themselves.
The main themes of the Avatar universe have always revolved around equality, justice, acceptance, tolerance, and balancing differing worldviews. In subtle and maybe not so subtle ways, Avatar and Legend of Korra have dealt with difficult subjects such as genocide, child abuse, deaths of loved ones, and post traumatic stress. I took it as a complement when Joanna Robinson of Vanity Fair called the show subversive. There were times even I was surprised we were able to delve into the really tough stuff on a childrens TV network. While the episodes were never designed to make a statement, Bryan and I always strove to treat the more difficult subject matter with the respect and gravity it deserved.
And over the years weve heard from numerous fans, in person and online, how Avatar and Korra have influenced their lives for the better or helped them overcome a life struggle or setback. I am always humbled when people share their personal stories with us and I am grateful that my love for telling stories has been able to help people in some small way. So while Avatar and Korra were always meant to be entertaining and engaging tales, this universe and its characters also speak to the deeper humanity in all of us, regardless of age, gender, race, religion, culture, nationality, or sexual orientation.
Our intention with the last scene was to make it as clear as possible that yes, Korra and Asami have romantic feelings for each other. The moment where they enter the spirit portal symbolizes their evolution from being friends to being a couple. Many news outlets, bloggers, and fans picked up on this and didnt find it ambiguous. For the most part, it seems like the point of the scene was understood and additional commentary wasnt really needed from Bryan or me. But in case people were still questioning what happened in the last scene, I wanted to make a clear verbal statement to complement the shows visual one. I get that not everyone will be happy with the way that the show ended. Rarely does a series finale of any show satisfy that shows fans, so Ive been pleasantly surprised with the positive articles and posts Ive seen about Korras finale.
Ive already read some heartwarming and incredible posts about how this moment means so much for the LGBT community. Once again, the incredible outpouring of support for the show humbles me. As Tenzin says, Life is one big bumpy ride. And if, by Korra and Asami being a couple, we are able to help smooth out that ride even a tiny bit for some people, Im proud to do my part, however small it might be. Thanks for reading.[/quote]
[quote author=Bryan]Korrasami is canon.
You can celebrate it, embrace it, accept it, get over it, or whatever you feel the need to do, but there is no denying it. That is the official story. We received some wonderful press in the wake of the series finale at the end of last week, and just about every piece I read got it right: Korra and Asami fell in love. Were they friends? Yes, and they still are, but they also grew to have romantic feelings for each other.
Was Korrasami endgame, meaning, did we plan it from the start of the series? No, but nothing other than Korras spiritual arc was. Asami was a duplicitous spy when Mike and I first conceived her character. Then we liked her too much so we reworked the story to keep her in the dark regarding her fathers villainous activities. Varrick and Zhu Li werent originally planned to end up as a couple either, but thats where we took the story/where the story took us. Thats how writing works the vast majority of the time. You give these characters life and then they tell you what they want to do.
I have bragging rights as the first Korrasami shipper (I win!). As we wrote Book 1, before the audience had ever laid eyes on Korra and Asami, it was an idea I would kick around the writers room. At first we didnt give it much weight, not because we think same-sex relationships are a joke, but because we never assumed it was something we would ever get away with depicting on an animated show for a kids network in this day and age, or at least in 2010.
Makorra was only endgame as far as the end of Book 1. Once we got into Book 2 we knew we were going to have them break up, and we never planned on getting them back together. Sorry, friends. I like Mako too, and I am sure he will be just fine in the romance department. He grew up and learned about himself through his relationships with Asami and Korra, and hes a better person for it, and hell be a better partner for whomever he ends up with.
Once Mako and Korra were through, we focused on developing Korra and Asamis relationship. Originally, it was primarily intended to be a strong friendship. Frankly, we wanted to set most of the romance business aside for the last two seasons. Personally, at that point I didnt want Korra to have to end up with someone at the end of series. We obviously did it in Avatar, but even that felt a bit forced to me. Im usually rolling my eyes when that happens in virtually every action film, Here we go again It was probably around that time that I came across this quote from Hayao Miyazaki:
Ive become skeptical of the unwritten rule that just because a boy and girl appear in the same feature, a romance must ensue. Rather, I want to portray a slightly different relationship, one where the two mutually inspire each other to live - if Im able to, then perhaps Ill be closer to portraying a true expression of love.
I agree with him wholeheartedly, especially since the majority of the examples in media portray a female character that is little more than a trophy to be won by the male lead for his derring-do. So Mako and Korra break the typical pattern and end up respecting, admiring, and inspiring each other. That is a resolution I am proud of.
However, I think there needs to be a counterpart to Miyazakis sentiment: Just because two characters of the same sex appear in the same story, it should not preclude the possibility of a romance between them. No, not everyone is queer, but the other side of that coin is that not everyone is straight. The more Korra and Asamis relationship progressed, the more the idea of a romance between them organically blossomed for us. However, we still operated under this notion, another unwritten rule, that we would not be allowed to depict that in our show. So we alluded to it throughout the second half of the series, working in the idea that their trajectory could be heading towards a romance.
But as we got close to finishing the finale, the thought struck me: How do I know we cant openly depict that? No one ever explicitly said so. It was just another assumption based on a paradigm that marginalizes non-heterosexual people. If we want to see that paradigm evolve, we need to take a stand against it. And I didnt want to look back in 20 years and think, Man, we could have fought harder for that. Mike and I talked it over and decided it was important to be unambiguous about the intended relationship.
We approached the network and while they were supportive there was a limit to how far we could go with it, as just about every article I read accurately deduced. It was originally written in the script over a year ago that Korra and Asami held hands as they walked into the spirit portal. We went back and forth on it in the storyboards, but later in the retake process I staged a revision where they turned towards each other, clasping both hands in a reverential manner, in a direct reference to Varrick and Zhu Lis nuptial pose from a few minutes prior. We asked Jeremy Zuckerman to make the music tender and romantic, and he fulfilled the assignment with a sublime score. I think the entire last two-minute sequence with Korra and Asami turned out beautiful, and again, it is a resolution of which I am very proud. I love how their relationship arc took its time, through kindness and caring. If it seems out of the blue to you, I think a second viewing of the last two seasons would show that perhaps you were looking at it only through a hetero lens.
Was it a slam-dunk victory for queer representation? I think it falls short of that, but hopefully it is a somewhat significant inching forward. It has been encouraging how well the media and the bulk of the fans have embraced it. Sadly and unsurprisingly, there are also plenty of people who have lashed out with homophobic vitriol and nonsense. It has been my experience that by and large this kind of mindset is a result of a lack of exposure to people whose lives and struggles are different from ones own, and due to a deficiency in empathythe latter being a key theme in Book 4. (Despite what you might have heard, bisexual people are real!) I have held plenty of stupid notions throughout my life that were planted there in any number of ways, or even grown out of my own ignorance and flawed personality. Yet through getting to know people from all walks of life, listening to the stories of their experiences, and employing some empathy to try to imagine what it might be like to walk in their shoes, I have been able to shed many hurtful mindsets. I still have a long way to go, and I still have a lot to learn. It is a humbling process and hard work, but nothing on the scale of what anyone who has been marginalized has experienced. It is a worthwhile, lifelong endeavor to try to understand where people are coming from.
There is the inevitable reaction, Mike and Bryan just caved in to the fans. Well, which fans? There were plenty of Makorra shippers out there, so if we had gone back on our decision and gotten those characters back together, would that have meant we caved in to those fans instead? Either direction we went, there would inevitably be a faction that was elated and another that was devastated. Trust me, I remember Kataang vs. Zutara. But one of those directions is going to be the one that feels right to us, and Mike and I have always made both Avatar and Korra for us, first and foremost. We are lucky that so many other people around the world connect with these series as well. Tahno playing trombonenow that was us caving in to the fans!
But this particular decision wasnt only done for us. We did it for all our queer friends, family, and colleagues. It is long over due that our media (including childrens media) stops treating non-heterosexual people as nonexistent, or as something merely to be mocked. Im only sorry it took us so long to have this kind of representation in one of our stories.
Ill wrap this up with some incredible words that Mike and I received in a message from a former Korra crew member. He is a deeply religious person who devotes much of his time and energy not only to his faith, but also to helping young people. He and I may have starkly different belief systems, but it is heartwarming and encouraging that on this issue we are aligned in a positive, progressive direction:
Ive read enough reviews to get a sense of how it affected people. One very well-written article in Vanity Fair called it subversive (in a good way, of course) I would say a better word might be healing. I think your finale was healing for a lot of people who feel outside or on the fringes, or that their love and their journey is somehow less real or valuable than someone elses That its somehow less valid. I know quite a few people in that position, who have a lifetime of that on their shoulders, and in one episode of television you both relieved and validated them. Thats healing in my book.
Love,
Bryan[/quote]
Now that Korra and Asamis final moment is out in the world, it seems like an appropriate time to express how I feel about it. I didnt want to say anything right away so the audience could experience the finale for themselves.
The main themes of the Avatar universe have always revolved around equality, justice, acceptance, tolerance, and balancing differing worldviews. In subtle and maybe not so subtle ways, Avatar and Legend of Korra have dealt with difficult subjects such as genocide, child abuse, deaths of loved ones, and post traumatic stress. I took it as a complement when Joanna Robinson of Vanity Fair called the show subversive. There were times even I was surprised we were able to delve into the really tough stuff on a childrens TV network. While the episodes were never designed to make a statement, Bryan and I always strove to treat the more difficult subject matter with the respect and gravity it deserved.
And over the years weve heard from numerous fans, in person and online, how Avatar and Korra have influenced their lives for the better or helped them overcome a life struggle or setback. I am always humbled when people share their personal stories with us and I am grateful that my love for telling stories has been able to help people in some small way. So while Avatar and Korra were always meant to be entertaining and engaging tales, this universe and its characters also speak to the deeper humanity in all of us, regardless of age, gender, race, religion, culture, nationality, or sexual orientation.
Our intention with the last scene was to make it as clear as possible that yes, Korra and Asami have romantic feelings for each other. The moment where they enter the spirit portal symbolizes their evolution from being friends to being a couple. Many news outlets, bloggers, and fans picked up on this and didnt find it ambiguous. For the most part, it seems like the point of the scene was understood and additional commentary wasnt really needed from Bryan or me. But in case people were still questioning what happened in the last scene, I wanted to make a clear verbal statement to complement the shows visual one. I get that not everyone will be happy with the way that the show ended. Rarely does a series finale of any show satisfy that shows fans, so Ive been pleasantly surprised with the positive articles and posts Ive seen about Korras finale.
Ive already read some heartwarming and incredible posts about how this moment means so much for the LGBT community. Once again, the incredible outpouring of support for the show humbles me. As Tenzin says, Life is one big bumpy ride. And if, by Korra and Asami being a couple, we are able to help smooth out that ride even a tiny bit for some people, Im proud to do my part, however small it might be. Thanks for reading.[/quote]
[quote author=Bryan]Korrasami is canon.
You can celebrate it, embrace it, accept it, get over it, or whatever you feel the need to do, but there is no denying it. That is the official story. We received some wonderful press in the wake of the series finale at the end of last week, and just about every piece I read got it right: Korra and Asami fell in love. Were they friends? Yes, and they still are, but they also grew to have romantic feelings for each other.
Was Korrasami endgame, meaning, did we plan it from the start of the series? No, but nothing other than Korras spiritual arc was. Asami was a duplicitous spy when Mike and I first conceived her character. Then we liked her too much so we reworked the story to keep her in the dark regarding her fathers villainous activities. Varrick and Zhu Li werent originally planned to end up as a couple either, but thats where we took the story/where the story took us. Thats how writing works the vast majority of the time. You give these characters life and then they tell you what they want to do.
I have bragging rights as the first Korrasami shipper (I win!). As we wrote Book 1, before the audience had ever laid eyes on Korra and Asami, it was an idea I would kick around the writers room. At first we didnt give it much weight, not because we think same-sex relationships are a joke, but because we never assumed it was something we would ever get away with depicting on an animated show for a kids network in this day and age, or at least in 2010.
Makorra was only endgame as far as the end of Book 1. Once we got into Book 2 we knew we were going to have them break up, and we never planned on getting them back together. Sorry, friends. I like Mako too, and I am sure he will be just fine in the romance department. He grew up and learned about himself through his relationships with Asami and Korra, and hes a better person for it, and hell be a better partner for whomever he ends up with.
Once Mako and Korra were through, we focused on developing Korra and Asamis relationship. Originally, it was primarily intended to be a strong friendship. Frankly, we wanted to set most of the romance business aside for the last two seasons. Personally, at that point I didnt want Korra to have to end up with someone at the end of series. We obviously did it in Avatar, but even that felt a bit forced to me. Im usually rolling my eyes when that happens in virtually every action film, Here we go again It was probably around that time that I came across this quote from Hayao Miyazaki:
Ive become skeptical of the unwritten rule that just because a boy and girl appear in the same feature, a romance must ensue. Rather, I want to portray a slightly different relationship, one where the two mutually inspire each other to live - if Im able to, then perhaps Ill be closer to portraying a true expression of love.
I agree with him wholeheartedly, especially since the majority of the examples in media portray a female character that is little more than a trophy to be won by the male lead for his derring-do. So Mako and Korra break the typical pattern and end up respecting, admiring, and inspiring each other. That is a resolution I am proud of.
However, I think there needs to be a counterpart to Miyazakis sentiment: Just because two characters of the same sex appear in the same story, it should not preclude the possibility of a romance between them. No, not everyone is queer, but the other side of that coin is that not everyone is straight. The more Korra and Asamis relationship progressed, the more the idea of a romance between them organically blossomed for us. However, we still operated under this notion, another unwritten rule, that we would not be allowed to depict that in our show. So we alluded to it throughout the second half of the series, working in the idea that their trajectory could be heading towards a romance.
But as we got close to finishing the finale, the thought struck me: How do I know we cant openly depict that? No one ever explicitly said so. It was just another assumption based on a paradigm that marginalizes non-heterosexual people. If we want to see that paradigm evolve, we need to take a stand against it. And I didnt want to look back in 20 years and think, Man, we could have fought harder for that. Mike and I talked it over and decided it was important to be unambiguous about the intended relationship.
We approached the network and while they were supportive there was a limit to how far we could go with it, as just about every article I read accurately deduced. It was originally written in the script over a year ago that Korra and Asami held hands as they walked into the spirit portal. We went back and forth on it in the storyboards, but later in the retake process I staged a revision where they turned towards each other, clasping both hands in a reverential manner, in a direct reference to Varrick and Zhu Lis nuptial pose from a few minutes prior. We asked Jeremy Zuckerman to make the music tender and romantic, and he fulfilled the assignment with a sublime score. I think the entire last two-minute sequence with Korra and Asami turned out beautiful, and again, it is a resolution of which I am very proud. I love how their relationship arc took its time, through kindness and caring. If it seems out of the blue to you, I think a second viewing of the last two seasons would show that perhaps you were looking at it only through a hetero lens.
Was it a slam-dunk victory for queer representation? I think it falls short of that, but hopefully it is a somewhat significant inching forward. It has been encouraging how well the media and the bulk of the fans have embraced it. Sadly and unsurprisingly, there are also plenty of people who have lashed out with homophobic vitriol and nonsense. It has been my experience that by and large this kind of mindset is a result of a lack of exposure to people whose lives and struggles are different from ones own, and due to a deficiency in empathythe latter being a key theme in Book 4. (Despite what you might have heard, bisexual people are real!) I have held plenty of stupid notions throughout my life that were planted there in any number of ways, or even grown out of my own ignorance and flawed personality. Yet through getting to know people from all walks of life, listening to the stories of their experiences, and employing some empathy to try to imagine what it might be like to walk in their shoes, I have been able to shed many hurtful mindsets. I still have a long way to go, and I still have a lot to learn. It is a humbling process and hard work, but nothing on the scale of what anyone who has been marginalized has experienced. It is a worthwhile, lifelong endeavor to try to understand where people are coming from.
There is the inevitable reaction, Mike and Bryan just caved in to the fans. Well, which fans? There were plenty of Makorra shippers out there, so if we had gone back on our decision and gotten those characters back together, would that have meant we caved in to those fans instead? Either direction we went, there would inevitably be a faction that was elated and another that was devastated. Trust me, I remember Kataang vs. Zutara. But one of those directions is going to be the one that feels right to us, and Mike and I have always made both Avatar and Korra for us, first and foremost. We are lucky that so many other people around the world connect with these series as well. Tahno playing trombonenow that was us caving in to the fans!
But this particular decision wasnt only done for us. We did it for all our queer friends, family, and colleagues. It is long over due that our media (including childrens media) stops treating non-heterosexual people as nonexistent, or as something merely to be mocked. Im only sorry it took us so long to have this kind of representation in one of our stories.
Ill wrap this up with some incredible words that Mike and I received in a message from a former Korra crew member. He is a deeply religious person who devotes much of his time and energy not only to his faith, but also to helping young people. He and I may have starkly different belief systems, but it is heartwarming and encouraging that on this issue we are aligned in a positive, progressive direction:
Ive read enough reviews to get a sense of how it affected people. One very well-written article in Vanity Fair called it subversive (in a good way, of course) I would say a better word might be healing. I think your finale was healing for a lot of people who feel outside or on the fringes, or that their love and their journey is somehow less real or valuable than someone elses That its somehow less valid. I know quite a few people in that position, who have a lifetime of that on their shoulders, and in one episode of television you both relieved and validated them. Thats healing in my book.
Love,
Bryan[/quote]
Nathan Fielder
Business Expert
Chat Operator
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i'm pretty sure it's on both of their tumblrs
- Pronouns
- He/him
- MarioWiki
- Mario4Ever
Yeah, it is.
that pairing seems unexpected
then again i still didnt watch any of korra soooo
then again i still didnt watch any of korra soooo
Kyoko Sakura
Celestial Guide
That's awesomeGhost Jam said:
If you watched ATLA, I recommend watching Korra. Just don't let Season 1's finale and Season 2 scare you away; the reason they were bad was because of Nickelodeon meddling. Season 3 and Season 4 were even better than Season 1 in my opinion.Freakworld said:
Korra and Asami's romance was built up throughout Season 3 and Season 4.
Does the fandom feel like Seasons 1 and 2 ended poorly?
I felt like Season 1 ended okish. Not bad, just kinda lost it's steam part way in.
Season 2 presented a few questions that will presumably be answered either in the next series (should they get it off the ground) or in further books (should they get them off the ground). But it felt like they wanted to lean on the parallels between the two Avatar series so much that Season 2's storyboard meeting started with "another giant monster fight goes here" and ended with "figure the rest out as we go".
I felt like Season 1 ended okish. Not bad, just kinda lost it's steam part way in.
Season 2 presented a few questions that will presumably be answered either in the next series (should they get it off the ground) or in further books (should they get them off the ground). But it felt like they wanted to lean on the parallels between the two Avatar series so much that Season 2's storyboard meeting started with "another giant monster fight goes here" and ended with "figure the rest out as we go".
Kyoko Sakura
Celestial Guide
I actually think even Season 2 of Korra is amazingly great in comparison of anything else on Nickelodeon... it's just that I think it was bad compared to the rest of Korra and ATLA. Awesome for Nickelodeon standards, meh for Avatar standards.
In my opinion think Season 1 ended poorly but Season 2 was crappy in general. I guess I thought the ending of Season 2 was okay.
All I know is that anything wrong with the series was Nickelodeon's fault, which is something we were discussing in the thread earlier. I don't know if I can find it but there was a list of reasons of what it was Nickelodeon did exactly (something about changing their mind about ending it after one season and then rushing the creators through Season 2?)
I'm so adamant about this because I have a friend on MFGG (who is a huge ATLA fan) who dropped Korra because of Season 2 and I've been begging him to give Seasons 3 and 4 a chance.
In my opinion think Season 1 ended poorly but Season 2 was crappy in general. I guess I thought the ending of Season 2 was okay.
All I know is that anything wrong with the series was Nickelodeon's fault, which is something we were discussing in the thread earlier. I don't know if I can find it but there was a list of reasons of what it was Nickelodeon did exactly (something about changing their mind about ending it after one season and then rushing the creators through Season 2?)
I'm so adamant about this because I have a friend on MFGG (who is a huge ATLA fan) who dropped Korra because of Season 2 and I've been begging him to give Seasons 3 and 4 a chance.
- Pronouns
- He/him
- MarioWiki
- Mario4Ever
Puddink said:
Season 1 was going to be the only one, and then Nick wanted three more seasons, all with self-contained plots. Whether they were rushed beyond that, I'm not sure (they were storyboarding Book 4 during Book 2's development, though).
ernesth100
The Traveler, The Genius, The Scholar
Just saw that finale and excuse me but *bleep* this. I refuse to believe Korra & Asami are in a relationship. Thy just went on a vacation to the spirit world as best friends. Nothing more nothing less.
SonicMario
Star Spirit
- Thread starter
- #1,069
ernesth100 said:
Deny it all you want, but if the co-creators of the show basically confirmed that Korrasami was their intention. Then it's essentially true.
ernesth100
The Traveler, The Genius, The Scholar
Got dammit. That's just straight up stupid.Nabber said:
ernesth100
The Traveler, The Genius, The Scholar
I'm all for same gender couples. But at the same time. This is not something you should marketing towards kids.
I mean what if someones daughter saw this and then thought it was okay to be in love with another girl at a young age then went to their mom and said "Legend of Korra told me" wouldn't be such a good thing then would it. I mean seriously IT'S A KIDS SHOW!
I mean what if someones daughter saw this and then thought it was okay to be in love with another girl at a young age then went to their mom and said "Legend of Korra told me" wouldn't be such a good thing then would it. I mean seriously IT'S A KIDS SHOW!
Lily x
Goodbye
Hey, guess whaternesth100 said:
So you are basically saying the earth queen being suffocated is 'ok for kids' while a loving relationship between two women isn't?
Please, shut up with your homophobic whining.
ernesth100
The Traveler, The Genius, The Scholar
I'm not homophobic. I go to my best friends house every week. His brother is gay(but he's an adult). I don't have a problem with that. Just this is...uncomfortable. I can't quite wrap my head around why the creators had to pander to the Korrasami shippers. It's so...irregular.