2012 Aurora Shooting

[Pokemon DP]

do not speak to me of dips like you know what's what. I'm Crocodile Dippy, and don't you forget it.

the fact that we don't have too many crusades, imperialist takeovers, mass genocides, or insanely oppressive governments in the modern Western world, I'm inclined to think we're doing pretty damn well for ourselves

 

[General bob-omb]

do not speak to me of dips like you know what's what. I'm Crocodile Dippy, and don't you forget it.

the fact that we don't have too many crusades, imperialist takeovers, mass genocides, or insanely oppressive governments in the modern Western world, I'm inclined to think we're doing pretty damn well for ourselves

... Sorry, troughs...
Not morally. Also the government hasn't been following its values and is moving towards an oppressive government.

 

[IceShadow1199]

I feel so bad for the victims.

Whoever did this should die in a fire.

 

[Lakituthequick]

Or sit in a chair with a slowly rising pointed stick coming from underneath.

 

[Mario4Ever]

Not morally. Also the government hasn't been following its values and is moving towards an oppressive government.

What exactly would those values be (I disagree that the government is becoming oppressive)?

 

[Scarecrow von Steuben]

Whoever did this should die in a fire.

Or sit in a chair with a slowly rising pointed stick coming from underneath.

This stupid piece of turd deserves to die a slow and horrible death.

whoever did this should die.

It's odd, really. One of the things that offends me most in the aftermath of a tragedy like this is the gung-ho "Look-At-Me-I'm-So-Badass" response that some people seem to leap right to. What happened was terrible. Everyone agrees on this. You don't have to flex your damn muscles over the internet about what you'd do to the guy responsible.

do not speak to me of dips like you know what's what. I'm Crocodile Dippy, and don't you forget it.

the fact that we don't have too many crusades, imperialist takeovers, mass genocides, or insanely oppressive governments in the modern Western world, I'm inclined to think we're doing pretty damn well for ourselves

... Sorry, troughs...
Not morally. Also the government hasn't been following its values and is moving towards an oppressive government.

"The Gay Islamic Atheist Illuminati are trying to kill us all!"

 

[Ray Trace]

Look, I wasn't trying to be badass at all. I'm just overly upset and angry at this entire situation and those victims that died didn't deserve to die in a theater where they are supposed to feel safe and relaxed.

I'm not sure that you know that people can feel anger towards a person who does not know how to handle his own emotions and let his emotion take other innocent lives.

 

[Dr. Javelin]

Not morally. Also the government hasn't been following its values and is moving towards an oppressive government.

What exactly would those values be (I disagree that the government is becoming oppressive)?

Perhaps he meant "invasive", a valid viewpoint what with the healthcare bill and such.

 

[General bob-omb]

Not morally. Also the government hasn't been following its values and is moving towards an oppressive government.

What exactly would those values be (I disagree that the government is becoming oppressive)?

Natural law, morals, the electing of virtuous leaders, the separation of church and state (federal gov't, the state level (e.g. Virginia) is supposed to be influenced by religion), the realization of a divine creator, providing equal rights (not equal possesions), a divine law (not the same as natural), the right to govern is in the people not the gov't, strong local government, we are to be governed by law not a leaders whims, strength in the people, debt-free, the family being the core-unit, and for our country to be an example to the human race. There are other principles as well that have not been overstepped yet.

Oh, and I didn't mean oppresive exactly, I mean corrupt.

 

[Mario4Ever]

Natural law, morals, the electing of virtuous leaders, the separation of church and state (federal gov't, the state level (e.g. Virginia) is supposed to be influenced by religion), the realization of a divine creator, providing equal rights (not equal possesions), a divine law (not the same as natural), the right to govern is in the people not the gov't, strong local government, we are to be governed by law not a leaders whims, strength in the people, debt-free, the family being the core-unit, and for our country to be an example to the human race. There are other principles as well that have not been overstepped yet.
Oh, and I didn't mean oppresive exactly, I mean corrupt.

Everything in bold I disagree with. Most of your religion points are either false or have had nothing to do with the governing of the country (and should not), every leader has had his/her flaws, the point about the strong local government is a party issue, we've never been debt-free and likely never will (which isn't a bad thing; it's the amount that's the problem), and we're not supposed to be models to the species. Our system of government won't work in all cultures or for all people.

Now, back to the main topic. How does the Aurora shooting tie in to any of this (I was hoping that your elaboration would shed light on that, but up to now, it has not)?

 

[Time Turner]

Now, back to the main topic. How does the Aurora shooting tie in to any of this (I was hoping that your elaboration would shed light on that, but up to now, it has not)?

According to him, the world is becoming evil, and the Aurora shooting is proof of it, if I'm not mistaken.

 

[Scarecrow von Steuben]

Not morally. Also the government hasn't been following its values and is moving towards an oppressive government.

What exactly would those values be (I disagree that the government is becoming oppressive)?

the state level (e.g. Virginia) is supposed to be influenced by religion), the realization of a divine creator, providing equal rights (not equal possesions), a divine law (not the same as natural),

So if I don't believe in your religion, I can just go fuck off? Are Atheists, Hindus, Muslims, Buddhists, and the like any less citizens of America than Christians (I assume, when you say "divine law" you mean the Bible and not the Quran or something like that, since in America it's usually far-right Christians that want to implement their religion into the law. I might be wrong).

I'm not sure that you know that people can feel anger towards a person who does not know how to handle his own emotions and let his emotion take other innocent lives.

But it's like going off and ranting about how you'd torture Hitler to death. Everybody knows he was evil. He's dead, and if there's a Hell he's probably in it.

The Aurora shooter's life is essentially over. He's going to either get executed or spend the rest of his life in prison. Just about everyone in America can agree that he doesn't deserve to go free. Ranting about the horrible things you want to do to him is redundant and frankly feels kind of disrespectful to the victims.

I dunno, I'm not really phrasing this very well. Maybe a better way to explain it will come to me :/

 

[Pokemon DP]

Natural law, morals, the electing of virtuous leaders, the separation of church and state (federal gov't, the state level (e.g. Virginia) is supposed to be influenced by religion), the realization of a divine creator, providing equal rights (not equal possesions), a divine law (not the same as natural), the right to govern is in the people not the gov't, strong local government, we are to be governed by law not a leaders whims, strength in the people, debt-free, the family being the core-unit, and for our country to be an example to the human race. There are other principles as well that have not been overstepped yet.

Oh, and I didn't mean oppresive exactly, I mean corrupt.

You are not only blinded by archaic fundamentalist religious philosophy that is purely incompatible with modern Western society and system of government, you are also insanely nationalistic and I'm not at all fond of that. Why does America have to be the one true shining beacon of hope and freedom to the world? Why can't, say, Singapore or Finland be that?

I can take dumb religious nutjob arguments like yours quite well, but if there's one thing I can't stand it's jingoism. ANZUS all the way!

 

[Super Mario Bros.]

... we've never been debt-free ...

I hate to step in to make a trivial correction (since this isn't even really the place where this discussion should be), but there was a point in history that the United States was debt-free (for about a year, 1835 - 1836).



But yeah, perhaps this is just me, but I really feel that this topic is going in a direction not suitable for the reflection of this terrible event (political posts about the state of the United States, the world, and government in general do not do those who have suffered in this shooting any justice). It is truly unfortunate that somebody would rob anybody of the ability to live out their life as they should be able to, and even more so when as many people are effected as in this event (the victims, whether they passed away or were injured, as well as their families and friends). My condolences to those individuals.

 

[General bob-omb]

Some of you are wondering how this relates to the topic and it doesn't relate that much. It is a tangent from the last sentence I posted.

You are not only blinded by archaic fundamentalist religious philosophy that is purely incompatible with modern Western society and system of government, you are also insanely nationalistic and I'm not at all fond of that. Why does America have to be the one true shining beacon of hope and freedom to the world? Why can't, say, Singapore or Finland be that?

I can take dumb religious nutjob arguments like yours quite well, but if there's one thing I can't stand it's jingoism. ANZUS all the way!

First, you should read some books on this topic, as well as the actual documents and quotes of our founding fathers, you will see a much different point. Second, just because my worldview is different doesn't mean its a crime. Third, you also commited several illogical fallacies in that statement (i.e. Chronological snobbery, apriorism, ad hominem, bulverism) please keep this conversation rational.

 

[Scarecrow von Steuben]

actual documents and quotes of our founding fathers

Our founding fathers were not God. They did great things but they were not perfect. It doesn't matter what the documents and quotes say. Any government, state or federal, forcing people to obey the rules of a religion they don't believe in is wrong and is a violation of personal rights.

 

[Lin Beifong]

(i.e. Chronological snobbery, (...)

"Chronological snobbery"...

You are aware that the term "chronological" is an adjective that is used to describe the way an assortment of items is arranged in a sequence, right? As in, arranged according to the points in time associated with them.

This might just be me not being a native speaker of English, but I do not think this word can be applied to the term "snobbery" in the way you have used it here. Or at least not if you are trying to make sense.

 

[Pokemon DP]

First, you should read some books on this topic, as well as the actual documents and quotes of our founding fathers, you will see a much different point. Second, just because my worldview is different doesn't mean its a crime. Third, you also commited several illogical fallacies in that statement (i.e. Chronological snobbery, apriorism, ad hominem, bulverism) please keep this conversation rational.

I don't need to read books to know that you're being incredibly irrational and overly religious. The idea that society is somehow degrading or crumbling in recent years because it's no longer abiding by "good ol' fashioned Christian values" is ludicrous, and I cannot fathom how you would consider a traditional society where mass genocide of any demographic that looks at you funny was acceptable, slavery, discrimination, and abuse of ethnic minorities was just the norm that no one questioned, and women were supposed to be shoved in the kitchen because they weren't allowed the same rights as men. If I'm using the worst of those eras to prove a point, then you're doing the exact same with the modern age.

Modern society may not be perfect, but it's a hell of a lot more pleasant than life back in the day, so your argument that things have fallen more and more into sin only works if you are the sort of genocide-supporting, slavery-loving, woman-hating freaks who made the old days that way. Whoever is committing logical fallacies here, it sure ain't me, and by the looks of things everyone agrees (or at least doesn't agree with you).

You speak of divine law as an acceptable guiding force for our society, but what about those who aren't adherent to Christianity? Am I a sinner and therefore not allowed the same rights as everyone else just because I believe in the Buddha? And you didn't say anything about my comments asking you not treat America as this holy of holy places, when other countries can certainly be that "example to the human race" you so desire, but even then no country should be responsible for the world because that's arrogant and intrusive.

 

[Anton]

In addition, General Bob-omb, you're telling people to read up on and listen to what the founding fathers have decided is best for our country, yet, earlier, you declared that one of their main ideas that built our country--separation of church and state--is one of the reasons our world is plunging into sin. What's up with that?

 

[Mario4Ever]

This might just be me not being a native speaker of English, but I do not think this word can be applied to the term "snobbery" in the way you have used it here. Or at least not if you are trying to make sense.

It refers to the logical fallacy of believing that the thinking, art, or science of the past is inherently inferior to that of the present, and it was apparently coined by C.S. Lewis and Owen Barfield, not that it can accurately be applied to anything that's been said.

 

[Purple Yoshi]

And, of course, in a board about a horrible shooting, we have a discussion about...what? Religion?

Not only is this off-topic, it's kind of stupid to discuss things like this when it's clear everyone has different opinions on the matter.

 

[Pokemon DP]

Conversations flow, that's how discussion works, both on and offline. I'm sorry that it had to be in a thread like this where our primary concern should be about the deceased and those affected by this shooting, but we weren't the ones trying to use a tragedy as an excuse to evangelise.

 

[General bob-omb]

Really, what was the point of all this? I decided to type a normal post concerning the topic and typed something that contained my opinion. Someone with a different opinion contradicted it, spurring on an argument. That argument turned into this argument, which has turned into a bash-fest. If I have my opinion on a topic and someone else has an opinion, arguing will gain nothing. We will still have the same views and go away angry. So, per Purple Yoshi, this has been completely pointless.

 

[Scarecrow von Steuben]

Wow, way to evade having to answer to anything Dippy or I said.

I like these debates. I learn more about the other side, and I get the chance to see if my beliefs actually stand up in an argument. Also I like yelling at people I don't like, but that's beside the point.

This is the only thing that's happened this week on the Marioboards that I find interesting. Please don't shut it down now.

 

[Baby Mario Bloops]

Agree to disagree you guys; it's more mature to not continue on than to try to shut down the other. This thread is about a tragic event, not some beliefs that should be in a completely different thread. I'm sorry to come in like this, but I just got tired of all this pointless bickering.

Anywho, some of the people killed were acclaimed heroes but they shielded others in order to protect many of the people. It's amazing how quick and selfless some can be in situations like those. I hope their families know that they sacrificed themselves valiantly and saved many lives.