Smash Bros. Character/Roster Merit

Farina said:
Non-specific action figure, Pokemon Trainer (Possibly Kalos), Reckless figure guy that appears in all of those wii games at the very start of them, Captain(ness) Syrup, Roy (He returns), Pichu (He returns too), Ninten (From earthbound Zero), Matthew (Isaac's son), Chorus Kids, That one Samurai Swordman from rhythm heaven, Pushmo main character, Bomberman, Shadow the Hedgehog, Amy Rose, Dr Wily (From mega man), *Insert robot master from mega man here since there's too many of them).
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Eh, now that I think about it I can just scratch off some of these right away for pretty obvious reasons and/or they're in a group I've said probably won't stand a chance in the ballot and/or I already covered them in some way.

Pokemon Trainer

Type of Character: Returning Veteran(?)
Franchise: Pokemon

My Level of Want

If you mean another Pokemon Trainer like how it was in Brawl. You do know that's kinda asking alot because that's 3 Pokemon in one fighter. And the 3DS limitations is why they had to cut down the Trainer to just Charizard in the first place. I wouldn't want this just for the pain of the developers trying to figure that out. The cut of the Pokemon Trainer was a very understandable one given how complex he was.

Estimated Chance

It isn't going to happen. Again, Pokemon Trainer was shrunk down to just Charizard for a reason. He was by far the most popular of the trio in Brawl and even with entirely new Pokemon it's asking for too much of the developers.

Captain Syrup

Type of Character: Newcomer
Franchise: Wario

My Level of Want

I'm not too familiar with her having not played alot of the Wario Land games. I'd just be curious what she brings in. Though I think a character from WarioWare would be more likely then Syrup at the moment. Wario Land hasn't been quite as relevant in recent years.

Estimated Chance

Very low, it's been a while since we had a real Wario Land game. The last one being Shake It on the Wii where it is her most recent appearence. I don't think she's major enough to get anywhere on the Ballot as if a 2nd Wario rep is at all possible it would probably go to a WarioWare character instead.

Roy

But he is already in the game! He's the best Fire Emblem character. See, the gang's all here!

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...Ok, ok, I'll stop kidding around

Type of Character: Returning Veteran
Franchise: Fire Emblem

My Level of Want

I'll be blunt. I don't want Fire Emblem!Roy back much at all. I don't feel he's all too necessary. He only has the following he does because of his inclusion in Melee. And I never felt his inclusion was justified. His game wasn't even out yet when Melee was released. Inclusions for the sake of advertising a future product are an insult to the standards of a Smash Bros. character inclusion should be. It'd be like if they included the Inklings from Splatoon before the game is even out yet. Roy had not proven he's worth a spot in Smash Bros. at the time and in fact turned out to become one of the least popular Lords in the franchise. So yes, most of the support comes from Nostalgia for Melee rather then on the merits of the character itself. It's people that are like that who are probably upset at Project M for making Dr. Mario not a seperate character just because it's "Not how Melee did it!" despite Project M also bothering to include Roy and Mewtwo.

Estimated Chance

I do have to give it that he's still a veteran and will be requested quite a bit due to his cult following sheerly from Melee. But I don't think he's coming back. As much as people have their jokes about the Roy Koopaling already being there. THere's actually a little bit of a valid point of the Koopaling Roy may be the only Roy we get from now on. If they were going to include Fire Emblem's Roy somewhere in the future they'd probably make not sure to have any confusion in terms of names by making Roy into Roy Koopa. Not to mention Roy Koopa even has Roy's old crowd chant of "Roy's our Boy!". This makes bringing Fire Emblem's Roy quite difficult unless they decide to either change Roy the Koopaling's name in-game to Roy Koopa and FE's Roy keeps just Roy or give Roy some sort of title that differeinates him from Koopaling Roy that took away of just using Roy. And as much of a cult following he has, it's not as adamant as Mewtwo's fans and Mewtwo was a far more deserving return. I'm afraid Roy's fans are forced to stick with Project M for anything Recent going for him.

Pichu

Type of Character: Returning Veteran
Franchise: Pokemon

My Level of Want

Nope nope nope. Don't really need him. Sakurai has said himself Pichu was a joke character from the beginning. And is also the one character both Sakurai and even the Melee fan pandering Project M has not made much solid effort in bringing back. The only reason to include Pichu is if there's enough fans who believe in true 100% No cuts at all in the series no matter what. Which is just tough luck for just some of the characters. That goal is no longer possible after the 3DS version's limitations alone were unable to be dealt with that proved to be the demise of Ice Climbers, Squirtle, and Ivysaur.

Estimated Chance

Not happening whatsoever. The only thing bringing back Pichu does is pander to the crowd that believes every single little thing from Melee must return. Mewtwo's already enough and he's popular beyond just Melee Nostalgia. And he's coming to Smash 4 in just two days! (Well for those who registered both versions anyway)

Ninten

Type of Character: Newcomer
Franchise: Earthbound/MOTHER

My Level of Want

My issue with Ninten is he basically looks identical to Ness. Earthbound is still called Mother 2, but to a newcomer it may feel more like a Remake then a Sequel given the character designs. Maybe there is some slight differences. But from an untrained eye he has the sideways hat as well as the same clothing design. People would be kind of confused seeing him.

Estimated Chance

Ness already has his basic design down, I don't see him being chosen from the Ballot whatsoever. Having Lucas back is a blessing enough for fans of the franchise. I doubt they go full-scale by including Ninten too.


(And as for Matthew, I think it's just the same overall thing with Issac except he's not even the more popular choice and if Nintendo chose him from the ballot it would be like "The fans want Issac... so let's give him his son because it's the most Recent Golden Sun game! That will surely go well with the fans!")

Mallo

Type of Character: Newcomer
Franchise: Pushmo

My Level of Want

Eh... I actually have Pushmo on my 3DS. It's a neat little puzzle game, but I don't see it too necessary to include Mallo in the Roster

Estimated Chance

I think the most likely eShop character's hopes were already dashed with Dillon becoming an Assist Trophy. There's just not enough that stand out enough to be the eShop rep. But maybe next game we'll see if the eShop has gained more recognition enough to include a character or two from it.

Bomberman

Type of Character: 3rd Party Newcomer
Franchise: Bomberman

My Level of Want

Poor, poor, Bomberman. I'd personally love to see Bomberman get in somehow but I can never really consider him all too likely

Estimated Chance

The big problem being mostly it's Konami who owns him. Who already has Solid Snake with his own fans begging for his return. Right now Nintendo and Konami's relationship is kind of a mess. And it'd take a Miracle for Bomberman to find his way in Smash. Especially when characters like Rayman have much more possibility at the moment.

Amy Rose

Type of Character: 3rd Party Newcomer
Franchise: Sonic the Hedgehog

My Level of Want

Er, I don't actually hate Amy... but before Tails, Knuckles, and Dr. Eggman? No. The only way Amy gets playable in Smash is if this is a bizarro universe where Sega won the console war and they have their own Super Smash Bros. or if Nintendo buys out Sega and gives themselves free reign to include almost as many Sonic characters as they have Mario ones.

Estimated Chance

Just isn't happening. In the competition for a 2nd Sonic rep, Amy falls behind way short of the three I mentioned. It's even arguable that Shadow would deserve a spot in Smash before Amy as much as it would amuse me to see that a total of four Sonic characters got in before the rather overrated Shadow just to see the Shadow fanboy reactions.

Dr. Wily

Type of Character: 3rd Party Newcomer
Franchise: Mega Man

My Level of Want

I assume Wily's in a similar situation as Eggman. In terms of iconic status, Wily probably would be 2nd to Mega Man being the Main villain. But there's characters that are easier to make off that are side characters to Mega Man that are also pretty popular. Just replace Tails and/or Knuckles with Proto Man and Shadow with Bass and/or Zero and you got pretty much the same kinda situation in terms if a 2nd Mega Man rep was possible. I personally wouldn't mind Wily, but I'd like to see Sonic get another rep before Mega Man does. Sonic's been in the franchise for one game longer, they should get the first nod for a 2nd rep if they can.

Estimated Chance

Again low, as I basically said I think Megaman fans should wait and see if Sonic gets a 2nd rep so at least it becomes aware that it's possible for 3rd Parties to have more then one rep. Otherwise there's just no way Wily becomes the first already represented 3rd Party character.
 
Ok Real quick

Ryu

Type of Character: 3rd Party Newcomer
Franchise: Street Fighter

My Level of Want

I'm a little mixed in some way. I think Ryu's actually kind of neat. As Street Fighter is very much an established franchise that made it's debut along the same year as Mega Man did on Nintendo consoles. It also probably has much to do with the popularity of Fighting games as a genre and thus in some ways Smash may owe alot to Ryu. Though it's a bit odd because wasn't there something about how Sakurai made Smash as a bit of a protest against traditional fighters like Street Fighters that have hard to perform combos and use lifebars and why Smash Bros. is comparatively much more simple in button configuration then most Fighting games? It'd be weird having something that Smash Bros. represent basically what Sakurai was basically protesting when he started out making Smash Bros. But oh well, Ryu also bolsters the chances of any 3rd Parties especially the ones I've already covered.

Estimated Chance

Well uh... it's basically confirmed now. So chance is kinda irrelevant now. A victory theme as well as Music for Street Fighter was found by MULTIPLE trusted dataminers that looked through the DLC. Unfortunately for me that also means Fire Emblem's Roy is also coming back. But whatever, I'll put him in the same corner I put Dark Pit and Dr. Mario when I get him. But anyway yeah, Ryu is an interesting surprise. Not only do we get a rather unexpected choice, but this opens the window for more 3rd Parties then before. As now it's very possible Sega and/or Namco could be receiving another rep or two in the future.
 
Northern Verve said:
1. Mega Man
2. Mii Fighters
3. Little Mac
4. Pac-Man
5. Bowser Jr.
6. Duck Hunt Dog
7. Villager
8. Shulk
9. Robin
10. Palutena
11. Wii Fit Trainer
12. Rosalina
13. Lucina
14. Greninja
15. Dark Pit
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Now that Roy and Ryu have been officially confirmed we have an actual newcomer to add to this list. Allow me to put him in the list.

1. Mega Man
2. Ryu
3. Mii Fighters
4. Little Mac
5. Pac-Man
6. Bowser Jr.
7. Duck Hunt Dog
8. Villager
9. Shulk
10. Robin
11. Palutena
12. Wii Fit Trainer
13. Rosalina
14. Lucina
15. Greninja
16. Dark Pit

That's right, I rank him second only to fellow Capcom Represenative Mega Man himself. Street Fighter as a franchise put fighting games on the map, Sakurai himself played Street Fighter in his younger days, and some of Mario's moveset could definitely look like it was inspired by Ryu (The leaked screenshot of several characters doing the Shoryuken attests to this), etc.

Ryu himself is a gaming icon and I personally welcome him to Smash with open arms.

I also want to give a very well welcome to Lucas for returning.

Not so much for Fire Emblem's Roy I'm afraid (Given how much Smash 4 has screwed with me regarding the least meritable characters though, they may as well as bring back Pichu while they're at it). Sorry to the Roy fans here.
 
I still think you're ranking Lucina too high. I'd put her below Dark Pit.

Both are clones, but Dark Pit has some minor differences, whereas Lucina's moves are the exact same besides the lack of tipping.

Also, Dark Pit is Sakurai's creation, so there's that.
 
i wouldn't be that annoyed if pichu came back at this point tbh
 
Pichu added back in as a hyper glass cannon would be pretty great, since Rage is a thing now that he will get while comboing people.

Higher risk and higher reward Pikachu, I guess, like, giving him tons of base knockback on his finishers so it scales ludicrously like Falcon's Raptor Boost does (why on Earth does that kill reliably at ~110% oh god)
 
cat hit the keyboard and posted this before i was done before, g

Eri Ayase said:
i want young link back because that would mean no more toon link
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most likely it would just mean three Links

which is why Young Link is the only one I definitely don't want back, Toon Link makes much more sense imo

then again I don't hate Wind Waker like you do but personally there are things I don't like that I still want/don't mind being represented so :shrug:

Magikrazy said:
I still think you're ranking Lucina too high. I'd put her below Dark Pit.

Both are clones, but Dark Pit has some minor differences, whereas Lucina's moves are the exact same besides the lack of tipping.

Also, Dark Pit is Sakurai's creation, so there's that.
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I would disagree. while I do think Lucina definitely shouldn't be above Greninja, she was a rather popular choice and isn't design wise Marth with a different color scheme, and I personally thought Fire Emblem getting four characters made more sense than Kid Icarus getting three
 
I don't really see what's wrong with Greninja. He's a fun and unique character. Why should I care if it's "too soon" to add him.
 
People probably wouldn't be complaining about Lucina or Dark Pit if they were given unique movesets, to be honest. Smash Bros is a game as much as it is an all-star showcase, nothing wrong with fun fighters.

Roy looks like hes getting some additional Luigifying, so I'm fine with it.
 
Eri Ayase said:
i want young link back because that would mean no more toon link
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I would want him if he has a Majora's Mask moveset.



Why would it be too soon for Greninja, anyways? I don't see the problem with having a Gen 6 Pokémon. Melee got Pichu when Gold and Silver were new and Brawl got Lucario when Diamond and Pearl were still new. I wish we got Zoroark too though because Gen 5 deserves a playable Pokémon and Zoroark has lots of moveset potential.
 
Regarding my order of most meritable newcomers please note that these are my personal views/opinions. I'm sure if someone was more of a Nintendo purist Megaman and Ryu certainly wouldn't be the Top 2 newcomers in their list.

And there are those who like Dark Pit, Greninja, or Lucina enough personally that they'd rank them higher on the list (Granted I'm not saying I dislike either Lucina's nor Greninja's as I do Dark Pit)

If you disagree with me, that's fine. It's human nature to have differing opinions.

I just want to say though I have my reasons for their placement and I'm just sharing my thoughts on what are the best inclusions of this game as well as the earlier games which are in the first few posts of this thread. If you want me to explain any more about in detail, I'd be happy to oblige. But for the most part I feel I have done most of it already.
 
Well anyway, with Ryu I think all 3rd Party characters are at least slightly bolstered no matter who they are even if their chances are slim anyways. Ryu just makes them less slim.

I even have a bit of a hopeful area for Tails next year (Since I've said that's my most wanted DLC character). In fact, I'm almost thinking possibly as early as Next Year's E3 cause in June of that year not only is there of course E3... it's the 25th Anniversary of Sonic. It'd be perfect if Sega and Nintendo did something to celebrate that, by having a bit of a Sonic content pack next year including of course Tails as a playable character (Maybe if we're lucky they may even bring in Knuckles with Tails. Who knows?).

(Now I'm not going to count on it, but that's probably going to be the time I'm going to be the most cautiously optimistic about things. Even if it doesn't happen oh well, I'm sure Sega will have a new Sonic announcement of some kind to keep me occupied Sonic-wise)
 
It's that time again, we have another Newcomer so it's time to pour out my thoughts on Merit and how I rank them amongst the Newcomers. Cloud is a confirmed character though so I can't exactly say Estimated Chance, so it will be replaced with general thoughts on merit.

Cloud Strife

Type of Character: 3rd Party Newcomer
Franchise: Final Fantasy

My Level of Want

I have never played a Final Fantasy game, I'm not really a huge RPG person in general. As the only RPG games I've played in full were most of the Paper Mario games. So considering that Cloud has no personal attachment to me. However that doesn't mean I dislike his inclusion. There are legit reasons to complain about him for some people who care about merit at least in terms of relation to Nintendo. Like his only appearances on Nintendo consoles were cameos in games like the Kingdom Hearts GBA game or his one playable appearance (albeit chibified) in Theatrhythm Final Fantasy edition on the 3DS. So he has even less impact on Nintendo consoles as a character then Snake does. However somehow I'm not mad at all. I suppose to be fair on the other side of things if someone had brought him up in this thread earlier before he was confirmed, I would of probably said a low level of want and his chances being really, really low. But part of this is kinda why I love Smash speculation. Sakurai often throws a lot of curveballs, even when we had all those leaks during Smash 4's development we still got out fair share of those like when we got Robin & Lucina as opposed to the expected Chrom. Sakurai find a way to fit in the unexpected in oddly fitting ways. This game series is full of characters you never knew you wanted to be in the game, but when they are they endear you to them that you don't care anymore. Cloud I think will become Smash 4's Snake in Brawl moment for just how surprising this was.

General Merit Thoughts

I'll begin with some of the negative things about Cloud before going into the positives. Get the bad news out before the good news about all this.

Time to get to the elephant in the room, that is of course Cloud has barely been on Nintendo consoles. Aside from the aforementioned Kingdom Hearts GBA game and the Rhythm game based on Final Fantasy on 3DS, Cloud has been mainly in Square games that weren't at all on Nintendo consoles. And his debut game was probably one of the things involved when Sony, Square, and Nintendo had a falling out after Nintendo refused to go with CDs for the N64. Resulting in Nintendo missing out on Final Fantasy 7, and thus a new rival getting it's first killer app that gave Nintendo fits in industry competition. In a lot of ways this is weirder and more mind blowing then when Sonic got in Brawl. Because at least when Sonic got in Brawl despite once being Public Enemy Number 1 for Mario fans in the early 90s he had been third Party for at least 7 years at that point. Sonic games were all over on the Gamecube, GBA, DS, and there were upcoming games on the Wii. While Final Fantasy continued to be on Nintendo systems even after FF7, they were mainly GBA titles and none of those involved Cloud anyhow. So Cloud really sounds closer to a Sony mascot on the likes of Crash Bandicoot (Well before Crash himself expanded). People already still question why the heck Solid Snake got in Brawl. Now we have Cloud who is even more questionable then Snake, because Snake did have at least the NES games as well as the Gamecube port of MGS2 prior to his inclusion in Brawl. Like Snake even, Cloud would of fit quite great and probably would of helped with Playstation All-Stars, which now compared to Smash look like they were totally lost to what helped Sony rise to the top when besides Cloud they missed out on Snake as well as Crash Bandicoot. Nintendo purists when Cloud was announced probably had steam fuming out of their ears when they saw Cloud at the end of that Nintendo direct. Which is understandable from a point of view cause objectively Cloud is the least related to Nintendo out of the 6 Third Party characters so far that have made it into Smash.

However, there is another way to look at this that may make Cloud make a little more sense. Final Fantasy used to be a huge thing that Nintendo could boast they had the full support of. The first six games were all on Nintendo consoles and were genre starters that influenced probably almost every single modern RPG in some way. They had memorable stories, characters, and the gameplay itself had memorable moments like having a character able to suplex a freaking' train. And if it wasn't for the falling out, we may have had FF7 on N64 had Nintendo listened and gone with CD-based systems. If that had happened, it's quite possible Cloud could of gotten in as early as Melee or at the very least Brawl. Because it wasn't however, Nintendo missed out on having a character that would become the household name for everybody in regards to Final Fantasy. As much as a generic black mage, ninja, or whoever like we see in those Mario & Square Enix sports games (Mario Hoops and Mario Sports Mix) would of been a more iconic and more in relation to Nintendo, it just wasn't good enough to justify a 3rd Party inclusion in Smash. And while there were plenty of characters with actual names in some of the Pre-FF7 Final Fantasies, they aren't as well known as Cloud is. When you have characters like Sonic, Pac-Man, and Mega Man in the roster. You have a high standard for 3rd Party inclusions to live up to, and Ryu and Cloud are two characters that can actually somewhat boast that. All I'm saying is, I believe Sakurai has slightly changed his restrictions on 3rd Parties since Brawl. He now searches for legendary Icons in franchises that can boast a history on Nintendo even if the character in question that is most popular in said franchise has been on rival consoles more then they've been on Nintendo ones. While I don't know a lot about FF7 or Final Fantasy in general, it's clear to me it was a very iconic game and is probably considered one of the best games of all-time in the general public. With both Snake in Brawl, and Cloud in Smash 4. It's clear Sakurai gives no fucks about if the character is all that relevant to Nintendo, if they're a legendary icon he'll take them into consideration. For better or for worse depending who you ask, Smash Bros. may just be turning into more then just a Nintendo game.

How you rank Cloud's merit is going to depend on if you prefer relation Nintendo being a huge factor, those who are more Nintendo purists would likely rank him near or at the bottom of the list. While those who are starting to look at Smash as more then Nintendo now as more as a celebration of iconic gaming everywhere will rank him near the top. I'm personally going to go for a bit of a level-headed look at it. I don't think I can say he's one of the best inclusions in the game. But I also think he's far from the worst. So I think somewhere in some of the middle spots is a good enough spot for him

1. Mega Man
2. Ryu
3. Mii Fighters
4. Little Mac
5. Pac-Man
6. Bowser Jr.
7. Cloud Strife
8. Duck Hunt Dog
9. Villager
10. Shulk
11. Robin
12. Palutena
13. Wii Fit Trainer
14. Rosalina
15. Lucina
16. Greninja
17. Dark Pit

He is ranked #7 out of 17 in my Newcomers list. Would you look at that, the game he debuted was the 7th game in the Final Fantasy series and he's #7 in my list. 7 is looking like a lucky number for him.
 
Here's how I see it. Before FFVII, the Final Fantsay games had a long history with Nintendo. It's an aspect that I think deserves recognition in Smash. Now why Cloud? He's simply the most iconic FF character. He's representing his series as a whole. Sakurai could have chosen a character from the early games, but they pale in comparison to Cloud's recognizability. Sakurai said he wanted to make this "the best character game ever" or something like that. With the likes of Mario, Sonic, Pac-Man, Pikachu, Ryu, Cloud, and others, it's safe to say he's fulfilled his goal.
 
Final newcomers are here! Let's get right to it

CORRIN

Type of Character: Newcomer
Franchise: Fire Emblem

My Level of Want

Pretty much the same for any Fire Emblem character. I'm pretty apathetic though I certainly don't hate it. I think Corrin's already better then Roy as he/she at least has an interesting playstyle with all the Dragon transformation stuff in the moveset. And Fates WAS released already… in Japan at least. It's coming pretty soon though. No doubt Corrin is the least popular of the final 3 characters and will be the target of many a salty speculator (Even if that's probably inevitable considering the other 2 were Cloud Strife and Bayonetta who even was the ballot winner). I'm not upset over the inclusion. So I'll live with it for sure. There will many others that will need time to get used to it though

General Merit Thoughts

Already Corrin has a few things that will not look good for his/her Merit. He/She is very, very, VERY new to the point it's almost Greninja all over again. But what Corrin does have over Greninja is that at very least they are the main character of the new game, Like it or not, Fire Emblem has multiplied in popularity since Awakening to the point that Nintendo pushes them like Pokemon games (Heck Fates has different versions much like the Pokemon games). In fact adding Corrin has made Pokemon and Fire Emblem have the exact same amount of Reps (Six each. Pokemon: Pikachu, Jigglypuff, Lucario, Charizard, Greninja, and Mewtwo. Fire Emblem: Marth, Ike, Robin, Lucina, Roy, and Corrin). No doubt people will call BS on that since it's generally seen that Fire Emblem isn't as huge as Pokemon. But the way things are growing for the series it certainly seems like if Fates is just as if not more successful it will certainly become a flagship on the level of Pokemon soon enough. Which is amazing when you put into consideration if Awakening had not been as successful as it was, Nintendo was considering ending the franchise altogether. That's right, despite the huge bump the franchise got with Marth and Roy in Melee. It was not enough for Nintendo. So Awakening had to be desperate, and it worked. For some classic Fire Emblem fans it's given them a feeling that the series has sold out. But now the franchise will have tons more recognition then it ever had. Corrin being a little new still hurts his/her merit to the point he/she's definitely on the lower level of Newcomers. But there certainly is a basis for this. There may be yet another Fire Emblem or two by the next Smash to include and Corrin could of been passed over in favor of the new character(/s) so it's quite possible if Corrin was ever getting in Smash it had to be as DLC here.

So overall, Corrin is ok. I understand why they included him, and the moveset looks interesting. Just unlike with most of the Newcomers I don't see any reason to be particularly as interested in them as of now.

And now on to our final newcomer…

BAYONETTA

Type of Character: 3rd Party Newcomer
Franchise: Bayonetta

My Level of Want

I know nothing of Bayonetta, and the games aren't exactly a long standing series that Cloud could boast with Final Fantasy. Just like how Cloud makes Snake make more sense, Bayonetta does the same for Cloud in comparison. I'll explain more in the general merit thoughts. But I don't hate this inclusion either. But I know more about Fire Emblem then I do Bayonetta so that's saying something. She is the ballot winner being #1 Overall (Though note the asterisk that said of characters that were doable so there were probably some non-Video game characters ahead of her at least in the US) so I can't complain that people didn't get what they wanted. Looks like the polls that had characters like King K. Rool, Issac, and the Inklings on top were not in consideration of the Silent Majority who don't browse Smash sites every day and it proved to be the difference. Her moveset looks pretty interesting for sure though (One thing I'd like to say though, anybody who owns Dark Pit in their trailer helps me be ok with them more ;) )

General Merit Thoughts

Let me break down quickly the merit of all the previous 3rd Parties that are in Smash 4. Megaman by far is the most deserving from his time on the NES and if he were owned by Nintendo likely would of gotten in a lot earlier then he did. Sonic had that big rivalry with Mario in the 90s and then Sega became one of Nintendo's closest 3rd Party friends which is symbolized with both the Olympic Game series and Sonic's inclusion in Brawl and Smash 4. Pac-Man is the father of all Video game mascots and thus has probably the largest impact on gaming then any other character in the game. Ryu is the very face of Classic Fighting games. And Cloud is the most popular protagonist of the legendary genre-starting series that is Final Fantasy. Bayonetta absolutely has none of these yet. I'm not saying she isn't Iconic. As the franchise is quite popular and could definitely be considered one of the few characters that debuted past the turn of the century that could be considered an Icon of gaming. The only other name in that category that comes to mind is Master Chief, but that's not possible for Smash yet until all notions of industry competition are let go (We'd likely get Banjo first before Master Chief anyway).

During Smash speculation a common but rather silly argument against her was that she was "Too Sexy and/or Violent for Smash". No doubt they did have to tone her down quite a bit, but we've got Snake before so that's not really an excuse (Whether Snake is more on the Sexy or Violent side depends who you ask ;) ). In addition Platinum Games has been praised so much in recent years releasing hit after hit. No doubt that Bayonetta is their rep (While Platinum Games is technically owned by Sega, I don't count her as a 2nd Sega rep. Sega helped publish but not development) and many people who are fans of Platinum Games will be very happy with this. Still though, it's very likely at this point that Nintendo purists will say that Bayonetta has finally made 3rd Party choices jump the shark (That is if they weren't already clamoring that for Ryu and/or Cloud). So combine this and Corrin's reveal and if metaphorical Salt turned into real salt. There'd be enough to have a decent snowfall of it over a large city. However being the ballot winner she has to have a good reason why she was #1 Overall even if at the moment I don't know what it is since I know nothing of Bayonetta whatsoever. But the beauty of Smash is showing these kind of characters that are very popular to some who may have missed what they were about. So who knows maybe Bayonetta in Smash could get me to try her games out if I like her enough. However regardless of how much I come to like her or not. Some things will definitely not change, she is still least meritable of any of the 3rd Party characters that have ever gotten in the game. So unlike the other 3rd Parties in my Newcomer ranking list she won't be in the upper half of the Merit list. In fact, let's factor in both Corrin and Bayonetta in to that very list now

1. Mega Man
2. Ryu
3. Mii Fighters
4. Little Mac
5. Pac-Man
6. Bowser Jr.
7. Cloud Strife
8. Duck Hunt Dog
9. Villager
10. Shulk
11. Robin
12. Palutena
13. Wii Fit Trainer
14. Bayonetta
15. Rosalina
16. Corrin
17. Lucina
18. Greninja
19. Dark Pit

As you can see, Corrin is above Lucina and below Rosalina. I think a good spot for all of them as generally new characters. If Lucina is Roy done right (I mean merit-wise. YMMV on playstyle), then Corrin is Roy/Lucina done even better. With an all unique moveset and coming in at a time Fire Emblem has reached a new peak.

Bayonetta isn't too far ahead as she's just above Rosalina. Though she's less then Wii Fit Trainer. (The Trainer still has relevance of Nintendo and the sales of Wii Fit/Wii Series in General to back her).

So overall these Final Newcomers are pretty much a disappointment Merit Wise compared to most of the others. But I'd like to again stress the only Newcomer I truly dislike is Dark Pit. I have issues that linger on even now for any characters below Palutena but I don't dislike their inclusions. You could say they're my "Meh" characters that I don't dislike or particularly like either (I kinda like Rosalina at least but not strong enough to say I care that much about her inclusion)

Well one thing I can say is with the characters being quite low that at least Cloud keeps his #7 spot. I'm admittedly still a bit amused by that. (And now that I've played as him I enjoy him as a fighter too. Quite possibly my favorite DLC character to play as thus far)

CLOSING THOUGHTS

But now with Smash 4 characters wrapped up that's all for that game. This thread can still be used for my impressions on character chances for Smash 5. But it may be a little too early to talk about that right now as a lot can happen between now and the next game. So if there's really nothing you'd like me to go over even just reviewing the merits of currently included characters then I suppose this thread is over until if I'm still here when Smash 5 comes (I'll probably be nearly 30 by that time though so I don't know where I'll be at that point)

All I gotta say though is the Newcomers in Smash 4 are definitely quite the mixed bag. We got some of the best inclusions in the entire series for sure but we also got quite a bit of characters that definitely split the fanbase on whether they were good inclusions or not. I think it'd be hard to find someone who really likes every single Newcomer. And while the same could be said for the previous games it surely is more fanbase splitting then most. People were angry about the Brawl roster at one point too, but people slowly began to accept it and when Smash 4 came along there was a huge contingent hoping for no cuts whatsoever. (I don't think that will happen for Smash 4's Roster. I could actually see alot more ANTI-Support threads popping up next time around regarding returning characters) Thus why we have a lot of people disappointed that Ice Climbers, Snake, Wolf, and even the two other Pokemon from Pokemon Trainer that was reduced to Charizard only. It'll take some time for the reaction to the overall Newcomer base in Smash 4 to heal. But overall it should eventually be widespread that it's amazing just how many characters and unique styles of play were implemented. And no doubt if in Smash you care most about Content and amount of Characters available then Smash 4 will be in no doubt your favorite in the series. It is without a doubt my favorite for so many reasons. I stand by the thought that the series has gotten better with each installment (As controversial that would be to say in front of Melee fans) and I have no doubt should there be another it's quite possible to go even beyond that.

I'd like to thank Sakurai for all his hard work he put into this game as he's included many awesome characters both in terms of their status in Gaming History or at the very least how fun they are to play. If this is his last Smash Bros. he did an excellent send-off. If he comes back next time, that's great as we'll come to expect just as much hard work as ever. If he doesn't it'll however be understandable and hopefully his successor has the passion for Smash enough to maintain the same sort of effort. But for now, thank you Sakurai. Either way you've touched the hearts of many with all four games in the series and it will forever personally be my favorite video game franchise of all-time. Thank you so, so much.
 
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