TTYD: Too many villains!

Godzillasaurus

Godzillasaurus

Goomba
I recently just played through TTYD, and I gotta say, there seems to be way too many different villains in the game (or to the least, villain affiliations)

First, you have Sir Grodus and the X-nauts. That right there is one grouping with a goal of taking over the world. Then you have Beldam and by extension, the Shadow Sirens whose goals are to revive the Shadow Queen. THEN you have the Shadow Queen herself who is basically the bigger bad of the game (thus, her goals are different from those of Beldam); her goals are too also take over the world just like the X-nauts, but she is unrelated to them. And finally you have Bowser who, despite being more of a minor antagonist, still was arguably the second biggest threat in the entire game (penultimate boss); his goals were to steal Peach (presumably from Sir Grodus) and the Crystal Stars.

And that doesn't even count the "minorities" such as Grubba, Doopliss, and Lord Crump (which is more or less a rival throughout the game and is often seen separated from Sir Grodus as opposed to the other Shadow Sirens which are almost always with Beldam.)
 
>Too many villains. Naw, you can never have too many villains IMO. Especially when they add tons of variety.
 
I thought the fact that there were many villains added to the uniqueness of the game.
 
sounds to me like this is your first work of fiction where the lines between good and evil aren't quite as clear as they usually are
 
Godzillasaurus said:
I recently just played through TTYD, and I gotta say, there seems to be way too many different villains in the game (or to the least, villain affiliations)

First, you have Sir Grodus and the X-nauts. That right there is one grouping with a goal of taking over the world. Then you have Beldam and by extension, the Shadow Sirens whose goals are to revive the Shadow Queen. THEN you have the Shadow Queen herself who is basically the bigger bad of the game (thus, her goals are different from those of Beldam); her goals are too also take over the world just like the X-nauts, but she is unrelated to them. And finally you have Bowser who, despite being more of a minor antagonist, still was arguably the second biggest threat in the entire game (penultimate boss); his goals were to steal Peach (presumably from Sir Grodus) and the Crystal Stars.

And that doesn't even count the "minorities" such as Grubba, Doopliss, and Lord Crump (which is more or less a rival throughout the game and is often seen separated from Sir Grodus as opposed to the other Shadow Sirens which are almost always with Beldam.)
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Well, that's what RPGs are.
 
I feel your problem. I don't like games with more than 1 Villain faction either.
 
GalacticPetey said:
DragonFreak said:
>Too many villains. Naw, you can never have too many villains IMO. Especially when they add tons of variety.
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Except Spider-Man 3.
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lol, but I agree with Dragon Freak. You can't have to many villains.....Well, at least in gaming lol


EDIT: But I do agree though, some games can have so many villains that the plot becomes confusing.
 
Let me just say that I DO NOT HATE IT WHEN MOVIES OR GAMES HAVE MULTIPLE AND INTERESTING ANTAGONISTS AND/OR COMPLEX PLOTS. I actually enjoy that quite a bit, a lot more-so than if you have one villain that is not all that interesting.

But was the amount of villains in Thousand Year Door really necessary? Maybe take away the one that is most pointless in terms of plot relevance?
 
Hackmon said:
GalacticPetey said:
DragonFreak said:
>Too many villains. Naw, you can never have too many villains IMO. Especially when they add tons of variety.
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Except Spider-Man 3.
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But I loved Venom and Sandman, which are my 4th and 5th favorite Spiderman villains respectively.
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Who are your top 3?
 
This is all way less complicated than you make it out to be, really.

The Shadow Queen is the main villain, and Beldam is her loyal subject. These are not two different factions at all. Beldam is actively working towards the resurrection of her queen. They are on the same side.

Then you have Grodus, who THINKS he is the main villain, but who is actually just being played by Beldam.

Bowser is just comic relief. He is not a part of the main storyline, and he is definitely not the second biggest threat to anything or anyone. His only role in the game is to be funny and to be thrown in near the end because you can't have a Mario game without a Bowser battle apparently. You could write him out of the story and replace his final role with a boulder that falls onto Grodus from the ceiling and the plot wouldn't be any different.

So really, all you have is two relevant enemy factions. There is certainly nothing confusing about it unless you want it to be.
 
^I for one do no deny that there are only a few different villain factions. But a single faction can still have multiple villains which can be considered significant enough to contribute to the main plot.

Lord Crump for example is the heavy to Grodus. He is basically your rival throughout the game, and can be considered his own significant villain by himself. Beldam is pretty much the same, only she fights with two others.

That right there makes 4 separate villains for the main plot; and 2 different factions. If Crump was hardly ever found by himself away from Grodus (who stayed in his fortress for the bulk of the game, save for the final chapter), then he would be too insignificant to be considered his own villain; sort of like Bowser and Kammy Koopa.

As for Bowser himself, you must remember that a villain is still a villain. He gets in Mario's way and actually wants to steal the Crystal Stars and the legendary treasure for himself (if I remember correctly); he has his own separate faction.

Look I am not trying to spark a huge debate here, so this is a call out to everyone to not get frustrated if someone disagrees
 
While Bowser is an enemy faction, he is ultimately just comic relief in this game. Sure he's technically dangerous when you fight him at the end but really he had no idea what was going on and only attacked Mario because well, its Mario and he hates him.
 
I like games and/or movies with many villains.

Yes I actually liked the movie Spider Man 3 mostly because of that.
 
TTYD's storyline wasn't confusing at all. All the bad guys related to each other in some way, making a neatly placed spider web of enemies. Having a jungle of random ones that don't relate is just a mess and kills it. Having one-off characters that aren't related to the other main ones at all are fine if they don't randomly get in the way of the other one for no reason.

Did that even make sense?
 
The game didn't have too many villains, they all worked very well with the story. I wouldn't mind another Paper Mario that had a similar selection of villains for that matter. But then again I love it every time the Mario series introduces new main villains that aren't affiliated with Bowser.

I sure as hell wouldn't dislike having numerous antagonistic parties, it adds to the charm of the game.
 
Godzillasaurus said:
^I for one do no deny that there are only a few different villain factions. But a single faction can still have multiple villains which can be considered significant enough to contribute to the main plot.

Lord Crump for example is the heavy to Grodus. He is basically your rival throughout the game, and can be considered his own significant villain by himself. Beldam is pretty much the same, only she fights with two others.

That right there makes 4 separate villains for the main plot; and 2 different factions. If Crump was hardly ever found by himself away from Grodus (who stayed in his fortress for the bulk of the game, save for the final chapter), then he would be too insignificant to be considered his own villain; sort of like Bowser and Kammy Koopa.

As for Bowser himself, you must remember that a villain is still a villain. He gets in Mario's way and actually wants to steal the Crystal Stars and the legendary treasure for himself (if I remember correctly); he has his own separate faction.

Look I am not trying to spark a huge debate here, so this is a call out to everyone to not get frustrated if someone disagrees
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Welll... I don't really know what else to say other than you probably shouldn't be playing RPGs or story-driven games if the complexity of TTYD's plot overwhelms you.

Meanwhile, everyone else who liked TTYD's tame, non-confusing, interconnected character variety can continue to enjoy the game exactly as it is.
 
Well would you really want one villain and just fight them the whole game? That'd be boring.

Besides the X-nauts and their clique are basically the main group everyone else is just supporting villains I guess.

And I loved how there was a whole different side with Bowser and Kammy Koopa (those scenes were hilarious) .
 
It still amuses me that Grodus despite being all serious business and calling everyone fools never realized he was being played for a fool.
 
Yeah, that's what hubris does to you. Happens plenty of times in real life too.
 
Aye that it does.

Its also a fairly common downfall of many villains.
 
While Bowser is an enemy faction, he is ultimately just comic relief in this game. Sure he's technically dangerous when you fight him at the end but really he had no idea what was going on and only attacked Mario because well, its Mario and he hates him.
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That would be like saying that Electro in Amazing Spiderman 2 is just for comic relief because he is, albeit one of the most sympathetic villains IMO, still quite humorous and arrogant. Oh, and he downright hates Spiderman! Bowser was still a villain in this game, although minor.

The game didn't have too many villains, they all worked very well with the story. I wouldn't mind another Paper Mario that had a similar selection of villains for that matter. But then again I love it every time the Mario series introduces new main villains that aren't affiliated with Bowser.

I sure as hell wouldn't dislike having numerous antagonistic parties, it adds to the charm of the game.
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I like it too, but still it does become quite confusing and unnecessary at times.

Welll... I don't really know what else to say other than you probably shouldn't be playing RPGs or story-driven games if the complexity of TTYD's plot overwhelms you.

Meanwhile, everyone else who liked TTYD's tame, non-confusing, interconnected character variety can continue to enjoy the game exactly as it is.
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I still love it though! I love the game, and the plot! But there is a certain limit that having so many antagonists can go before becoming unnecessary. I don't see why you have to believe that simply making an observation means that you dislike something. That is like if I were to say that my iPhone has a slight gold tint to it; that doesn't mean I hate it.

It still amuses me that Grodus despite being all serious business and calling everyone fools never realized he was being played for a fool.
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His arrogance blinds him! Still a very interesting villain nonetheless. I loved how he always abused his underlings like Bowser does

But just because he was being played as a mere puppet does not really make him any less of a threat; that is a common fallacy among TvTropers and plot analysts. It just means that he was not the one behind the plot. He was still the MAIN threat the entire game in regards to how the plot played out, despite being a puppet.
 
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