Unpopular opinions about the Super Smash Bros series.

[YoshiFlutterJump]

I would say that Ultimate's the best in the series. But when you factor in mods...

I can't do this in Ultimate.

 

[LeftyGreenMario]

Yeah, just find a character that you can (usually) win with and stick with it. No need to pay attention to the tier lists. Made by biased fans.

You're not going to avoid bias, plain and simple. I think you should try to understand why a character gets ranked on a tier list, it's not just people liking or disliking characters. Also, tier lists are constantly in dispute even by professionals, and pros make their own tier lists that differ from the "established" ones. There's a lot to criticize tier lists for, but calling it "biased" isn't one of them.

I would say that Ultimate's the best in the series. But when you factor in mods...

I can't do this in Ultimate.

Probably will at a later point, though, but right now, Smash 4 is the best IMO. Hacking stuff is in its very early stages, everything is command-based, and restrictions severely limit what you can do.

Melee tier list is a perfect example of that. Kirby's ranked dead last despite the Melee competitive scene agreeing near-unanimously that Pichu deserves that spot.

Nah, pros are disputing it and say that Kirby's right there being last and Bowser is vying for that spot too. Have you ever used those two in Melee? They're really THAT bad.

 

[YoshiFlutterJump]

I've played a bit of Melee, playing as Kirby 99% of the time (although I did have to use Mario in Adventure Mode in order to unlock Luigi), and I'm great with him. Much better with him than Mario, really. Melee Kirby is criminally underrated and isn't nearly as bad as those dumb tier lists say.

Haven't tried Bowser at all, though. But I have almost always seen Pichu rank first in unofficial "worst Melee fighters" list. Not to mention that he was made intentionally weak, further shown by the fact that they doubled his nerfs from Pikachu in the European version.

 

[Ray Trace]

In-game is a vastly different experience than playing with others competitively. CPUs are dumb and do dumb things. That's a given.

None of this changes the facts about how terrible Melee Kirby is. SmashWiki's entry on Kirby does a better job explaining than I how I do it, but he's not criminally underrated, he's right where he belongs in the tier list.

https://www.ssbwiki.com/Kirby_(SSBM)

 

[MnSG]

I would say that Ultimate's the best in the series. But when you factor in mods...

I can't do this in Ultimate.

Yeah, after reading the hacking tutorials for Ultimate, it's definitely not at a safe point yet. At least you can safely mod Smash Wii U, assuming that you have access to the proper exploits.

 

[saltypepper]

Tier lists get more accurate as the game gets older and older. As Melee is more than 10 years old the tier list is super accurate and really only the top 10 are actually competitively viable (and you really only see 6 of those characters actually used). Although I think it should really be named something like "Competitive Ruleset Tier List" as Smash typically can be played in any way that you prefer so factoring in items can change lots of things (although I think if you're trying to base a tier list based on items you're really not getting anywhere).

While playing as the low tiers can be really fun and jank sometimes, on a competitive standpoint, there IS a reason they're low tier. Kirby's way too slow, his grabs are super unreliable, can be killed easily, poor approach options, and a bunch of numerous other factors. Since tier lists are usually determined by tournament results (which is usually fast characters that overwhelm Kirby), it is kind of a given.

 

[YoshiFlutterJump]

I just went ahead and checked the matchup spreads on Smash Wiki for Kirby, Bowser, and Pichu. Take a look:

Kirby
Positive matches: 2 (2)
Even matches: 2 (0)
Soft-countered by: 4 (-4)
Countered by: 10 (-20)
Hard-countered by: 7 (-21)
Overall: -43

Bowser
Positive matches: 0 (0)
Even matches: 2 (0)
Soft-countered by: 5 (-5)
Countered by: 12 (-24)
Hard-countered by: 6 (-18)
Overall: -47

Pichu
Positive matches: 0 (0)
Even matches: 3 (0)
Soft-countered by: 4 (-4)
Countered by: 6 (-12)
Hard-countered by: 12 (-36)
Overall: -52

As you can see, Pichu has the worst matchup spread by far. Shouldn't the tier list reflect this, and put Pichu at the bottom? I thought tiers were based on matchups.

 

[MnSG]

Actually, based on the match-up totals, Melee Kirby is -43, which is third worst.

This is starting to turn off-topic though.

 

[YoshiFlutterJump]

Actually, based on the match-up totals, Melee Kirby is -43, which is third worst.

This is starting to turn off-topic though.

Oh yeah. Man, am I really that bad at counting?

 

[LeftyGreenMario]

Some of those matchups are disputed at length, but I do suppose some pro Smashers disagree and put Kirby at a whopping ... 24th.

 

[YoshiFlutterJump]

Some of those matchups are disputed at length, but I do suppose some pro Smashers disagree and put Kirby at a whopping ... 24th.

Doesn't matter to me. At least he's above Mr. Intentionally Weak Joke.

 

[Jigglypurin]

Some of those matchups are disputed at length, but I do suppose some pro Smashers disagree and put Kirby at a whopping ... 24th.

Doesn't matter to me. At least he's above Mr. Intentionally Weak Joke.

 

[LeftyGreenMario]

Tier list is probably wildly inaccurate, don't trust any lists you see until several months after release.

and just don't obsess about those damn things either, exactly my point that people put waaaaay too much weight in that shit

 

[Koops]

Tier list is probably wildly inaccurate, don't trust any lists you see until several months after release in general

And I repeat, Mac is not a bad character.

 

[LeftyGreenMario]

mac can still whoop your ass especially if you have matchup inexperience, you wouldn't do well to underestimate any character by competent players really

none of you are ultra competitive schlubs either, so tier lists don't apply whatever, and tier lists are complete moot in items high time match 8 player stage morph team battle friendly fire

but kirby is still terrible in melee, and game & watch feels outright busted in the wrong way like with his nonexistent shield and some moves being unable to be l-canceled

 

[Ray Trace]

in the matches i play in, idk, your character's viability in 1v1 tournaments won't magically grant him an extra shield against 7 other fighters, Deoxy's Hyper Beam, Kyogre's hydro pump, exploding blast boxes, and a dead yellow devil. all at once.

 

[YoshiFlutterJump]

Some of those matchups are disputed at length, but I do suppose some pro Smashers disagree and put Kirby at a whopping ... 24th.

Doesn't matter to me. At least he's above Mr. Intentionally Weak Joke.

Pichu is not Mr. Intentionally Weak Joke in Ultimate.

 

[LeftyGreenMario]

no one is, really, but it's pretty sad that in melee bowser and kirby rival pichu in terms of top class weakness too; nothing about bowser feels right in melee, so he's not fun in casual play either

 

[Ray Trace]

he does feel like a beast ohkoing Kirby in 2.0 ratio in venom hahaha

 

[MnSG]

Some of those matchups are disputed at length, but I do suppose some pro Smashers disagree and put Kirby at a whopping ... 24th.

Doesn't matter to me. At least he's above Mr. Intentionally Weak Joke.

Very inaccurate when you realize that King K. Rool, Charizard, and Mr. Game & Watch are considered to be very terrible. And yes, you really have to separate the Pokemon Trainer's Pokemon this time.

 

[Czario]

I like tier lists because they provide relatively accurate rankings for the general consensus of the competitive Smash community even if they aren't to be taken as scientific law. Of course, the older a game is, the more accurate its tier list is. Also, tier lists don't mean much for 80 - 90% of Smash players since character superiority really only matters at very high levels of play. I like looking at tier lists because they're interesting even though mean nothing for my gameplay.

Also I'm pleased that some of my mains such as Young Link and Ness happen to be high tier in most current Ultimate tier lists (of course, them being high-tier does not affect whether or not they are my mains).

 

[winstein]

Image posters of newcomers should also include Assist Trophy characters of the game the newcomer is first playable in. Fighters are guaranteed to be included with the newcomer like a welcoming ceremony, so I figured that Assist Trophy characters could feasibly be included too.

Thank you for reading.

 

[LeftyGreenMario]

Also I'm pleased that some of my mains such as Young Link and Ness happen to be high tier in most current Ultimate tier lists (of course, them being high-tier does not affect whether or not they are my mains).

I guess they're perceived as "good" but all Smash Ultimate tier lists you currently see are inaccurate, so take any you see on the Internet with a grain of salt.

 

[saltypepper]

I don't know if this opinion is necessarily unpopular but I hope Olimar gets nerfed or at the very least everyone in the cast gets buffed in hopes that dealing with Olimar is easier because dealing with that little dude is annoying as hell.

 

[YoshiFlutterJump]

Inkling needs a nerf. Period.