Stage Legality Discussion Thread

[GalacticPetey]

That's not why Melee is loved in the competitive scene. It's remembered for the gameplay. If Smash 4 had its current roster plus Melee's gameplay, both parties would be happy.

 

[Baby Mario Bloops]

That's not why Melee is loved in the competitive scene. It's remembered for the gameplay. If Smash 4 had its current roster plus Melee's gameplay, both parties would be happy.

So basically you're saying that both parties aren't happy unless it's Melee?

 

[GalacticPetey]

No. I love all Smash games. Gameplay similar to Melee wouldn't hut any casual play and would benefit competitive players. I see no reason not to do it.

 

[Baby Mario Bloops]

No. I love all Smash games. Gameplay similar to Melee wouldn't hut any casual play and would benefit competitive players. I see no reason not to do it.

I don't like that mindset, because it basically is saying "casuals don't care, so do whatever the competitive players want", even though - as you mentioned earlier - that a majority of the people that get the game are casual players.

Sakurai understands who his target audience is, combined with the fact that he doesn't want it to become a sports (even though it will have it's competitive side), which is why he probably doesn't want it too much for the competitive players and more on just having fun battling as your favorite characters.

So yeah, I do see a lot of reasons why he wouldn't do it.

 

[Crackin355]

Back to the topic at hand; having four players removes some stage hazards so Reset Bomb Factory could be a Doubles counter pick. That would be cool, it makes the environments indestructible and gets rid of the monster at the bottom.

 

[GalacticPetey]

No. I love all Smash games. Gameplay similar to Melee wouldn't hut any casual play and would benefit competitive players. I see no reason not to do it.

I don't like that mindset, because it basically is saying "casuals don't care, so do whatever the competitive players want", even though - as you mentioned earlier - that a majority of the people that get the game are casual players.

Sakurai understands who his target audience is, combined with the fact that he doesn't want it to become a sports (even though it will have it's competitive side), which is why he probably doesn't want it too much for the competitive players and more on just having fun battling as your favorite characters.

So yeah, I do see a lot of reasons why he wouldn't do it.

So the competitive community should just be ignored?

 

[Zae]

No. I love all Smash games. Gameplay similar to Melee wouldn't hut any casual play and would benefit competitive players. I see no reason not to do it.

I don't like that mindset, because it basically is saying "casuals don't care, so do whatever the competitive players want", even though - as you mentioned earlier - that a majority of the people that get the game are casual players.

Sakurai understands who his target audience is, combined with the fact that he doesn't want it to become a sports (even though it will have it's competitive side), which is why he probably doesn't want it too much for the competitive players and more on just having fun battling as your favorite characters.

So yeah, I do see a lot of reasons why he wouldn't do it.

So the competitive community should just be ignored?

quite impossible. As long as smash continues to be a fighting game, there will always be a competitive scene.

 

[Daniel Dyce]

No. I love all Smash games. Gameplay similar to Melee wouldn't hut any casual play and would benefit competitive players. I see no reason not to do it.

I don't like that mindset, because it basically is saying "casuals don't care, so do whatever the competitive players want", even though - as you mentioned earlier - that a majority of the people that get the game are casual players.

Sakurai understands who his target audience is, combined with the fact that he doesn't want it to become a sports (even though it will have it's competitive side), which is why he probably doesn't want it too much for the competitive players and more on just having fun battling as your favorite characters.

So yeah, I do see a lot of reasons why he wouldn't do it.

So the competitive community should just be ignored?

Yep fuck em

 

[Lumastar]

Back to the topic at hand; having four players removes some stage hazards so Reset Bomb Factory could be a Doubles counter pick. That would be cool, it makes the environments indestructible and gets rid of the monster at the bottom.

You bring up a good point, but the extremely campy nature of the second half is something to consider. Maybe a counterpick?

 

[LeftyGreenMario]

I'm not ignorant; I know the competitive scene. I just gave my opinion. If you don't like my opinion, well then oh well. You can't just walk in though saying that I'm ignorant and that my analogy is awful and then not say anything else.

It's a misinformed opinion then. The analogy is awful because stages being banned and characters being banned are two different things. Stages have much more potential of overcentralizing the gameplay and turning the gameplay into a campfest. Characters, on the other hand, require grasping the fundamentals of their moveset and take quite some time to fully master. You can tell a difference between the time I've invested with Mario compared to Pikachu even though I'm an overall super-experienced Smash player. Characters do get broken, and they get banned the same reason stages get banned: they're unhealthy for the competitive community.

People and even I can argue that stage hazards are skill-based as it requires exploitation, but in the end, the incessant relying on exploiting stage hazards overcentralizes the game and it's not really a matter of skill. It discourages people from experimenting and using different tactics and rewards cheap tactics. There are stages with hazards that are allowed, but I think the motives for banning certain stages in tournaments are reasonable. I still think, however, transforming each stage into a Final Destination variant is laughable and exposes the ignorance of the developers when it comes to the competitive community.

No. I love all Smash games. Gameplay similar to Melee wouldn't hut any casual play and would benefit competitive players. I see no reason not to do it.

I don't like that mindset, because it basically is saying "casuals don't care, so do whatever the competitive players want", even though - as you mentioned earlier - that a majority of the people that get the game are casual players.

Sakurai understands who his target audience is, combined with the fact that he doesn't want it to become a sports (even though it will have it's competitive side), which is why he probably doesn't want it too much for the competitive players and more on just having fun battling as your favorite characters.

So yeah, I do see a lot of reasons why he wouldn't do it.

So the competitive community should just be ignored?

quite impossible. As long as smash continues to be a fighting game, there will always be a competitive scene.

Some competitive scenes have more critics than others. Melee is far from perfect, but I don't think it's comparable to the mess that Barlw is.

I don't like that mindset, because it basically is saying "casuals don't care, so do whatever the competitive players want", even though - as you mentioned earlier - that a majority of the people that get the game are casual players.

Casuals do care about their game. It's just that the inner workings of the game doesn't influence them as much. Like, they're not going to argue for the removal of stale move negation as much as competitive players, nor do they mourn the death of wave-dashing and shine dashing as much as the competitive players. They might celebrate the ease of air-dodging and side-stepping because it's apparently improved, although competitive players dislike it because it encourages less aggressive play.

The majority of the Super Smash Bros. players are not competitive, but it isn't like Melee is too difficult to jump in and enjoy it. Melee has the bonus of having the depth required for actual competitive play, which makes it a wonder Sakurai was so reluctant to make Brawl a Melee 2.0.

 

[Zae]

Some competitive scenes have more critics than others. Melee is far from perfect, but I don't think it's comparable to the mess that Brawl is.

thats because sakurai didnt want brawl to be competitive in the first place which turned into some serious backlash.

not sure what that guy was thinking.

 

[LeftyGreenMario]

Some competitive scenes have more critics than others. Melee is far from perfect, but I don't think it's comparable to the mess that Brawl is.

thats because sakurai didnt want brawl to be competitive in the first place which turned into some serious backlash.

not sure what that guy was thinking.

He said he wanted his Super Smash Bros. games to be unique with each other in terms of physics, or that's how it's implied. I don't understand why he wants it. Maybe some variety? I don't know, but if you get the nice surprise of attracting an unintended community (the competitive community), you should also cater to them as well?

I'm not saying it should be like that convoluted competitive/noncompetitive hybrid mess like Pokemon, but what are the downsides of sticking with the Melee engine and just adding more characters, items, stages, and more physics improvements/tweaks?

 

[Ray Trace]

I don't want a Melee 2.0. I want a new engine that can work but even better than Melee.

 

[Zae]

Some competitive scenes have more critics than others. Melee is far from perfect, but I don't think it's comparable to the mess that Brawl is.

thats because sakurai didnt want brawl to be competitive in the first place which turned into some serious backlash.

not sure what that guy was thinking.

He said he wanted his Super Smash Bros. games to be unique with each other in terms of physics, or that's how it's implied. I don't understand why he wants it. Maybe some variety? I don't know, but if you get the nice surprise of attracting an unintended community (the competitive community), you should also cater to them as well?

I'm not saying it should be like that convoluted competitive/noncompetitive hybrid mess like Pokemon, but what are the downsides of sticking with the Melee engine and just adding more characters, items, stages, and more physics improvements/tweaks?

yeah i dont see why the melee engine was shot down, it was a good engine and had good qualities.

the thing that ruined melee was the roster and the massive imbalance in the characters, which the roster was improved massively in brawl and even more so in ssb4.

Of course there was the boosts, the nerfs, and blah blah blah

but yeah melee engine and speed should have been kept in all honesty not that floaty uninteresting crap in brawl.

Ssb4 improved though by being faster and by being far more interesting among other things.

So in a sense ssb4 kinda moved on for both sides, or well, at least i think so.

 

[LeftyGreenMario]

Some competitive scenes have more critics than others. Melee is far from perfect, but I don't think it's comparable to the mess that Brawl is.

thats because sakurai didnt want brawl to be competitive in the first place which turned into some serious backlash.

not sure what that guy was thinking.

He said he wanted his Super Smash Bros. games to be unique with each other in terms of physics, or that's how it's implied. I don't understand why he wants it. Maybe some variety? I don't know, but if you get the nice surprise of attracting an unintended community (the competitive community), you should also cater to them as well?

I'm not saying it should be like that convoluted competitive/noncompetitive hybrid mess like Pokemon, but what are the downsides of sticking with the Melee engine and just adding more characters, items, stages, and more physics improvements/tweaks?

yeah i dont see why the melee engine was shot down, it was a good engine and had good qualities.

the thing that ruined melee was the roster and the massive imbalance in the characters, which the roster was improved massively in brawl and even more so in ssb4.

Of course there was the boosts, the nerfs, and blah blah blah

but yeah melee engine and speed should have been kept in all honesty not that floaty uninteresting crap in brawl.

Ssb4 improved though by being faster and by being far more interesting among other things.

So in a sense ssb4 kinda moved on for both sides, or well, at least i think so.

Yeah, Melee didn't have the best roster, but Brawl had the potential to make up for this. As you said, we could also get some physics tweaks and maybe stream-line L-canceling and other minor things like that. Melee is an unbalanced game, I give you that, but it's a lesser-of-an-evils thing compared to Brawl. While Brawl had buffs and nerfs that made sense (Ice Climbers, Mr. Game & Watch), it had a multitude of nerfs that made no sense (like Mario, Link, Samus, and Ganondorf) as well as overalls buffs that did nothing to improve the character's tier position (Bowser, Zelda, Ness).

Then, we got the infamous Meta Knight. Brawl had the over reliance on chain-grabbing, its gameplay is essentially poke matches, there is little hitstun, there is tripping, and it has just overall slower and floating physics. I'd understand why Melee competitive players would be mad.

 

[Glowsquid]

Besides this is a fighting game, its going to have a competitive scene regardless.

While I don't think Smash will ever get to that point, there's a fair number of "mainstream-popular" fighters that don't have a real competitive scene because they're considered too unbalanced and broken (see: the first two Killer Insticts, pretty much every Mortal Kombat between UMk3 and the reboot, most anime tie-ins...etc).

 

[Zae]

Yeah, Melee didn't have the best roster, but Brawl had the potential to make up for this. As you said, we could also get some physics tweaks and maybe stream-line L-canceling and other minor things like that. Melee is an unbalanced game, I give you that, but it's a lesser-of-an-evils thing compared to Brawl. While Brawl had buffs and nerfs that made sense (Ice Climbers, Mr. Game & Watch), it had a multitude of nerfs that made no sense (like Mario, Link, Samus, and Ganondorf) as well as overalls buffs that did nothing to improve the character's tier position (Bowser, Zelda, Ness).

which is why i like ssb4 so much since it improved characters that got nerfed or were just weak to begin with (like sonic).

Of course we no longer have l-cancelling and wave dashing but its a massive improvement over that mess that was brawl.

Although im sure ssb4's competitive capability will be revealed soon if it has any interesting bugs/glitches/etc.

While I don't think Smash will ever get to that point, there's a fair number of "mainstream-popular" fighters that don't have a real competitive scene because they're considered too unbalanced and broken (see: the first two Killer Insticts, pretty much every Mortal Kombat between UMk3 and the reboot, most anime tie-ins...etc).

well true, but people still try to make a competitive deal about games like those, which is kinda funny, but it happens.

But the vasy majority of fighters have a competitive scene.

Since thats kind of the point of a fighting game, to compete.

 

[LeftyGreenMario]

Wave-dashing might be missed (I don't miss it), but l-canceling can be "removed" by just increasing the speed of landing lag after aerial moves. Easy as that. Everyone benefits from that.

Physics exploits are inevitably going to be found in such a game. It's been there since every Super Smash Bros.

 

[Magikrazy]

Bump, let's do Wii U now.

Spoiler

Battlefield- starter, duh
Big Battlefield- too big, camping potential is high, but no hazards and its basic, I'll say counterpick
Final Destination- starter, duh
Mushroom Kingdom U- Nabbit, that's all that needs to be said, banned
Mario Gallaxy- walk off and weird gravity gimmick, banned
Delfino Plaza- already counterpick
Mario Circuit- would be fine, but top blast line can be covered at times, banned
Mario Circuit (Brawl)- already banned
Luigi's Mansion- already banned
Jungle Hijinks- two layers, front layer can disappear occasionally, banned
Kongo Jungle 64- already starter, but I'll change to counterpick because it's kinda big
Skyloft- traveling stage like Delfino Plaza, counterpick
Bridge of Eldin- already banned
Temple- already banned
Pyrosphere- Ridley and other things affect gameplay, banned
Norfair- already banned
Port Town Aero Dive- already banned
Woolly World- when it's not walk off, its just those weird platforms, banned
Yoshi's Island- already banned
The Great Cave Offensive- too big, danger zones, idek about the minecarts, banned
Halberd- iirc its starter but ill make it counterpick just to be safe
Orbital Gate Assault- stage changes too frequently, too many hazards, banned
Lylat Cruise- already starter
Kalos Pokémon League- changes frequently, unlike stadiums there are several hazards, banned
Pokémon Stadium 2- already counterpick
Onett- already banned
Coliseum- torn on this one, walk off but otherwise fine
Castle Siege- already starter
Flat Zone X- both flat zones are banned, so
Palutena's Temple- lol nope
Skyworld- already banned
Gamer- banned because your mom
Garden of Hope- breakable terrain, that one crab bug thing, banned
Town and City- changes occasionally, but not too drastically, otherwise normal, starter
Smashville- already starter
Wii Fit Studio- torn on this one, walk off but otherwise fine
Boxing Ring- ropes, lights, walk offs, banned
Gaur Plain- awkward to traverse, Metal Face affects gameplay, banned
Duck Hunt- no hazards, all blast lines accessible, seems fine to me, starter
75m- already banned
Wrecking Crew- too much going on, girders bombs, oil drums, falling girders, trapped in drums, boom, boom, boom, banned
Pilotwings- tilting, gradual changes of platform, but otherwise fine, counterpick
Wuhu Island- putting this with Delfino Plaza, counterpick
Windy Hill Zone- somewhat big, but otherwise fine, counterpick
Wily Castle- Yellow Devil affects gameplay, banned
PAC-LAND- scrolling, walk offs, hazards, banned

 

[GalacticPetey]

Starter- Battlefield, Final Destination, Town and City, Smashville, Lylat Cruise.
Counterpick- Delfino, Skyloft, Wuhu, Kongo Jungle.
Either- Duck Hunt (Platforms and grass are both a little wonky)
Banned- Everything else

 

[Magikrazy]

What's so bad about walk offs anyway?

 

[Zae]

What's so bad about walk offs anyway?

its even easier to knock off opponents by corning them with chain grabs or more powerful attacks at low percentages.

 

[Magikrazy]

Can't chain grab in 4 iirc but I guess that's a good point

Also gp, what about Halberd?

 

[Stargazing]

okay gamer is defiently banned
same with palutena's temple

also mario galaxy has that gravity thing

 

[GalacticPetey]

Also gp, what about Halberd?

Whoops, I forgot. Counter-pick at most. The hazards only show up at one point and are very easy to dodge, but they turn the tide of a match really easily.