Music limit

[TtA]

According to Help:Media:

Music tracks that are longer than 30 seconds should be clipped to 30 seconds or less.

I have a number of problems with this policy, including the following:

• Thirty seconds seems like way too low for a limit.
• No explanation has been given as to why the limit is in place, especially given how low it is.
• The limit feels like an overly dramatic loss of information, which feels incredibly counterproductive for the wiki.
• There's even a rule stated earlier that seems to directly contradict the premise of the thirty-second limit (see below):

Music clips are also acceptable, but it is recommended that they fade out after the song loops once back to an earlier part, rather than end abruptly (see Audacity).

(Except most of the time you have no choice but to end the music abruptly with the limit in place.)

Really, I'm seeing no real benefit to this limit at all. It would help if there was kind of an explanation as to why the limit is the way it is, otherwise I would suggest greatly extending it or removing it entirely.

 

[Superchao]

the limit is basically so the wiki can't end up hosting an entire game soundtrack and become legally liable for infringing copyright

cutting music short forestalls that by preventing whole versions of songs from being on the wiki

 

[TtA]

the limit is basically so the wiki can't end up hosting an entire game soundtrack and become legally liable for infringing copyright

cutting music short forestalls that by preventing whole versions of songs from being on the wiki

Thanks, but if that's the case, then why even bother uploading music tracks to begin with? Also, I may not be familiar with international copyright laws, but I'm fairly certain our current usage qualifies under fair use as long as the quality of the affected OGA files is slightly reduced. In fact, it would likely be better if we slightly reduced the quality of the sound instead to satisfy both fair use and a presence of information.

 

[Alex95]

This was talked about on the admin board, so it was put into effect quietly. Here's some things that were said:

Thanks, but if that's the case, then why even bother uploading music tracks to begin with?

I think it's still important to document them, even in snipits. EDIT: In other words, we're trying to not be a music host, but music is something we should still document as it is one of the many and familiar aspects of the Mario franchise.

 

[Lakituthequick]

Relevant discussion on Discord from 15 August:

Spoiler

[16:04] karon: i would be entirely unsurprised if we got in the shit for hosting uncut music samples tbh
[16:04] Lakituthequick: I've always wondered, why do we host those music files?
[16:05] karon: :shrug: back when i was important i tried to stop them from doing it and it worked for a while
[16:05] karon: but i guess nobody cared after i left
[16:06] karon: or maybe they decided i was crazy and this is actually legally sustainable, idk
[16:06] Glowsquid: I remember us putting our foot down on uploading entire soundtracks from club nintendo soundtrack albums
[16:07] Glowsquid: Can you link to a page with music samples you find excessive?
[16:08] Lakituthequick: Everything on https://www.mariowiki.com/Template:Media_nav probably
[16:09] Glowsquid: oh yeah, that IS bad
[16:14] Lakituthequick: Cherry on top, some have https://www.mariowiki.com/Template:More_media on them
[16:16] karon: imo, no complete tracks should be uploaded at all
[16:16] karon: it should be limited to 30 second samples or something
[16:17] Lakituthequick: I like also how they are tagged with Template:Soundclip
[16:17] Glowsquid: jesus christ why do I even have my rank
[16:17] Lakituthequick: Which has a complete "fair use" etc etc on it
[16:17] Lakituthequick: "The sample is short in relation to the duration of the recorded track and is of an inferior quality to the original recording."
[16:17] Lakituthequick: haha
[16:17] karon: to spread the good word of ashley?
[16:17] : well
[16:17] : if you define "short" in a very specific way...
[16:18] Lakituthequick: "in relation to the duration of the recorded track"
[16:18] : that was my joke
[16:18] karon: the problem with "short" is that a lot of tracks in video games are infinitely long because they loop
[16:18] karon: so it should really be specified as a specificduration
[16:18] : speaking of 22
[16:18] : should the sample length cap be sliding depending on the size of a track
[16:19] : like a 40 second song, 30 secconds still gets you 3/4ths
[16:19] karon: i thought about that but im not sure how you determine the length of a track thats meant to loop forever
[16:19] Lakituthequick: From start to when it first starts repeating itself probably
[16:20] Lakituthequick: Maybe excluding the glitch in MK64
[16:20] karon: why excluding
[16:20] : i'd say the length of 1 loop
[16:20] karon: just require it to be 30 seconds, or 25%, whichever is shorter
[16:20] : including any special start
[16:20] karon: then you dont have to exclude anything
[16:21] : that's a good cap
[16:21] : i support
[16:21] Lakituthequick: There is a glitch in MK64 where the results music plays for over an hour and then a single loop includes an extra instrument
[16:21] karon: i knew what you were referring to
[16:21] Glowsquid: to spread the good word of ashley? <--- right after I complete a big edit on the ashley page, loooooooooool
[16:22] Lakituthequick: okay
[16:22] karon: im saying i dont see how it matters if we define the limit the way i said
[16:22] Glowsquid: but yeah I'm very embarassed I let this persist for so many years and that hsakes my already lacking confidence in my leadership skillz
[16:22] Glowsquid: anyeay I brought it up on the staff board because things have to change
[16:24] karon: you dont have to give yourself shit about it lol
[16:24] karon: i think most people are under the impression that nintendo just doesnt care
[16:24] karon: you know whats funny though
[16:24] karon: when i brought this up in 2008 or whatever
[16:24] karon: i made a proposal
[16:25] karon: i was in favor of letting shortened tracks be posted but the majority was in favor of just banning sound files entirely
[16:25] karon: so thats what the policy ended up being for the entire time i was active
[16:25] karon: idk when it changed
[16:28] : https://www.mariowiki.com/MarioWiki:Proposals/Archive_41#Establish_a_duration_rule_for_music_files
[16:28] : someone tried to do exactly this
[16:28] : rip
[16:28] karon: well, his argument was pretty dumb
[16:29] karon: it might pass if you phrased it as "lol guys nintendos gonna sue us"
[16:29] : i mean i'd support it if that was the argument
[16:29] karon: considering only the things he actually said in the proposal, there's no actual reason to do this
[16:30] karon: people can just like... not click the play button if they dont want to hear the tracks
[...]
[19:56] БaбyЛuigiOнФire: For the whole sound ordeal
[19:56] БaбyЛuigiOнФire: It never stood right with me that we have entirely cocking albums of the game
[19:57] БaбyЛuigiOнФire: And what defines "inferior quality" anyway?
[19:57] БaбyЛuigiOнФire: Like, would convert to mp3 be inferior?
[...]
[20:10] БaбyЛuigiOнФire: There are really short looping sounds out there, though like 25m
[20:10] БaбyЛuigiOнФire: And idk
[20:10] БaбyЛuigiOнФire: Shortening that to...like .5 seconds is ludicrous
[20:11] БaбyЛuigiOнФire: Or the starman theme
[20:11] БaбyЛuigiOнФire: So
[20:11] БaбyЛuigiOнФire: I think the only option for that is reducing sample rate drastically or whatever
[20:11] БaбyЛuigiOнФire: But idk
[20:12] БaбyЛuigiOнФire: (I still think we need to split up sound clip into two separate categories: music and sounds/voices
[20:12] БaбyЛuigiOнФire: (it's really weird seeing Mario's voice being labeled as a "music file"
[20:12] БaбyЛuigiOнФire: (unless you think Mario's voice is a music file)
[20:14] БaбyЛuigiOнФire: Hey, porplemontage updated policy
[20:14] БaбyЛuigiOнФire: But my suggestion for really short music tracks is to reduce frequency quality of it
[20:16] БaбyЛuigiOнФire: Because reducing 10 second tracks like the starman theme to like 3 seconds is stupid
[20:19] porplemontage: the limit is for music tracks, such as from a soundtrack, not all audio such as game audio
[20:20] БaбyЛuigiOнФire: So in-game rips are fine?
[20:21] БaбyЛuigiOнФire: If there is no soundtrack for the game, then hosting game rips is fine?
[20:21] БaбyЛuigiOнФire: Still, I think some short second loops are featured in some game soundtracks
[20:26] БaбyЛuigiOнФire: It could be difficult to distinguish what game audio is from a music track
[20:34] porplemontage: https://www.mariowiki.com/index.php?title=Help:Media&diff=2484206&oldid=2484170
[20:36] БaбyЛuigiOнФire: https://www.mariowiki.com/Special:Upload
[20:36] БaбyЛuigiOнФire: This needs to link to Help:Media
[20:37] БaбyЛuigiOнФire: As well as I think that we need to modify the site notice for the update in the media file policy
[20:50] БaбyЛuigiOнФire: Should sites that host full music files like Galbadia Hotel or Kingdom Hearts Insider be linked to or even mentioned?
[20:51] БaбyЛuigiOнФire: If we do reupload files, someone has to delete earlier revisions of the file because the full music would still be there

 

[Yoshi the SSM]

I can see where it is problematic, but I also see why it should be enforced.

For enforcing, here is a quote of the soundclip license.

This is a sample from a copyrighted musical recording. The person who uploaded this work and first used it in an article, and subsequent people who use it in articles, assert that this qualifies as fair use under United States copyright law, where:

• The sample is being used for commentary on the music recording in question, and contributes significantly to the encyclopedia articles it is used in (listed under the heading "File links" below) in a way that cannot be duplicated by other forms of media.
• The sample is short in relation to the duration of the recorded track and is of an inferior quality to the original recording.
• No other samples from the same track are used on the MarioWiki.
• There is no adequate free alternative available.
• A more detailed fair use rationale may be provided by the user who uploaded this recording.

Note that the template hasn't changed in a year.

But, it becomes problematic when you say 30 seconds for something like Jump Up, Super Star with there already being a short version longer than 30 seconds. Maybe Rainbow Road (N64) too? but it has no shorter version.

 

[TtA]

I can see where it is problematic, but I also see why it should be enforced.

For enforcing, here is a quote of the soundclip license.

This is a sample from a copyrighted musical recording. The person who uploaded this work and first used it in an article, and subsequent people who use it in articles, assert that this qualifies as fair use under United States copyright law, where:

• The sample is being used for commentary on the music recording in question, and contributes significantly to the encyclopedia articles it is used in (listed under the heading "File links" below) in a way that cannot be duplicated by other forms of media.
• The sample is short in relation to the duration of the recorded track and is of an inferior quality to the original recording.
• No other samples from the same track are used on the MarioWiki.
• There is no adequate free alternative available.
• A more detailed fair use rationale may be provided by the user who uploaded this recording.

Note that the template hasn't changed in a year.

But, it becomes problematic when you say 30 seconds for something like Jump Up, Super Star with there already being a short version longer than 30 seconds. Maybe Rainbow Road (N64) too? but it has no shorter version.

The bolded part above (and the part about not ending music abruptly) is the exact problem with enforcing this rule.

 

[Ray Trace]

If anything, I personally think our coverage in audio in general needs to be expanded upon. Sound and music is an important part of the game, and our game articles never talk about them in much detail unless an official soundtrack is released. btw, 30 seconds for a regular length Mario song are fine. Mario music rarely exceeds 2 or 3 minutes without looping back, that's pretty much their nature. It's adequate enough to cover the mood of the song.

Personally, I think music files are in a foggy situation. It's weird we're not allowed to upload music files but it's okay to link to them on YouTube (like in the My Music articles in MarioWiki) in which that case they're specifically uploaded by third party, non-licensed holders who own the music (which could be undermined by ads but that's about it..?)

Also, I'm not a huge fan of how the music limit was implemented in the wiki. The policy was changed behind the scenes as a simple edit on recent changes among many, without informing anyone at all. I wouldn't be surprised if wiki editors continued to upload music in their entirety without changing anything about it

 

[LeftyGreenMario]

If Nintendo has a Youtube that hosts music, should that be the alternative to uploading music tracks? How about third-party uploaders that host music?

 

[Ray Trace]

I don't think Nintendo has a YouTube channel that hosts music but if it does, then I guess that means it's okay to link to it...?

I'm not sure about the legality of third-party uploaders that host video game music. There's a ton of them out there (Smash Custom Music, KHInsider, Galbadia Hotel, etc), some more restrictive than others, and I wouldn't say they're necessarily illegal sites, not in the black like torrent sites anyway.