Super Mario = Paper Mario?

[MiracleDinner]

Hello,

I remember seeing this in the comments of a YouTube video (@Tinselina I think this was one of your livestreams?) but I can't seem to find it anymore so I can't really give credit to who made this, but anyway: this person brought to light a comparison between 3D Super Mario games and Paper Mario games for their respective systems:

Super Mario 64 / Paper Mario 64 (Nintendo 64): Loved, pioneered the series, seen as a classic and remembered positively for a very long time after.

Sunshine / Thousand-Year Door (GameCube): Took a similar formula to the N64 version and upgraded many elements of it as well as adding several new ideas. Usually seen as less revolutionary than the N64 version but still considered an upgrade and by some the best for a long time after.

Galaxy / Super Paper Mario (Wii): At first there were some people who didn't like it for being too easy and/or linear or some other changes they didn't like from the first two. But over time it arose to a largely very positive community reception, and did well commercially and critically.

3D Land / Sticker Star (3DS): Different to its predecessors in many ways, went for a new style entirely and got rid of many of the things that were loved about the first three. Ususally disliked and considered the worst.

3D World / Color Splash (Wii U): Took a very similar formula to the 3DS version but made it better in most ways. Not hated as much as the 3DS version but still generally considered a dissappointment.

Odyssey / ???????? (Nintendo Switch): Goes back to its roots, makes great leaps forward in many ways, fulfills most fans' wishes. Although there's obviously no nostalgia factor it is now commonly (though not unanimously) agreed to be the best and gives hope for the future of Mario, representing another golden age for Nintendo.

I think I find this interesting and I guess I agree with it but I don't think it's a perfect analogy.

For example I'd argue it might be better if we swapped the Wii and GC ones so that Sunshine = SPM and Galaxy = TTYD, since TTYD is a near-universally loved sequel to the first one which better matches Galaxy, whereas SPM was controversial for being different but still loved by many and considered underrated, which better matches Sunshine.

Also I think a lot of this is kind of obvious. E.g. of course SM64 and PM64 were classic pioneers, they wouldn't be the first in a popular series otherwise. The ones on the Wii were going to be a little different since the Wii at its core is a different console with different intentions compared to the N64 and GC, but it did excellently commercially which is why Galaxy and SPM did so well. Then the 3DS is less powerful even than the GC so it's kind of expected that this one would be less powerful.

Anyway do you think this is an interesting comparison and how far do you agree with it? Does Odyssey give you hope for the future of Super Mario and/or Paper Mario?

 

[Fawfulthegreat64]

Super Paper Mario and Galaxy both also take place outside the Mushroom World and involve traveling to completely different realms.

And TTYD and Sunshine both have a port town as their hub. Paper Mario 64 has Peach's Castle based on its depiction in Super Mario 64.

I think if Super Paper Mario had released after Galaxy, there would've definitely been Galaxy references at least in Chapter 4.

Though I also see some parallels between TTYD and Galaxy: the Grand Stars act like the Crystal Stars in the way they're arranged on the observatory and unlock new domes just like the Crystal Stars point towards where the next one is.

Boy do I hope the next Paper Mario does what Odyssey did for 3D Mario. I'm still not convinced it will though.

Also side note: from the topic title I thought you were asking whether Mario in the main series is the same character as Paper Mario, which I believe he is in the first 3 Paper Mario games, but not once they began focusing on being paper as a canon trait. (The paper abilities are "curses" in TTYD, characters aren't expected to fold like that, and I'm sure for 3D Mario it would just be represented as a transformation ability like a power-up, the way he transforms is just a neat stylistic interpretation)

 

[MiracleDinner]

Though I also see some parallels between TTYD and Galaxy: the Grand Stars act like the Crystal Stars in the way they're arranged on the observatory and unlock new domes just like the Crystal Stars point towards where the next one is.

I mean the Pure Hearts kind of do this too. But I guess the pattern on the floor next to Polari and Rosalina is a lot like the pedestal in TTYD.

Also your point on locations is very interesting. Then 3D Land and Sticker Star go back to a generic Mushroom Kingdom location (I think) and then 3D World and Color Splash go back to having another original location, but not really as epically otherworldly as we had on the Wii.

Finally Odyssey had you travelling between several kingdoms which I'm more fond of and hope this is the future of Paper Mario too.

 

[MiracleDinner]

Anyone I've asked (like 2 people) says 3D Land is better than 3D World.

I'd say the general opinion is that 3D World is better. I know TheTopTens is by no means an accurate measure of the community's opinion but it's overall somewhat reliable, so here

Top 10 Greatest Super Mario Games of All Time

www.thetoptens.com

As of me writing this post, 3D World = 7th and 3D Land = 16th
I haven't played 3D Land myself but judging from what I know 3D World seems better in pretty much every way, it's on a much stronger system anyway, so better graphics, better levels, better character selection, better music, better gameplay mechanics, better powerups etc.

Nintendo will make another Paper Mario, returning to its roots? Ain't gon happen.

Nintendo's changed a lot since the Wii U / 3DS era. I'm not going to place any money on the equivalent of Odyssey for the Paper Mario series but we've got a chance. And I hope so.

 

[Vivian]

I'm very interested in what Nintendo will do with Switch's high specs for a Paper Mario game.

Personally I'd like to see them use it to have about 6 main partners right at the beginning of the game, that progress and develop with Mario. And I mean actually develop. Their own stories fleshed out throughout the entire game.
All the while Mario will have Paper Cappy (or something near equivalent) to take over enemies. I'd love to have the chance to play every species in battle.

 

[MiracleDinner]

I'm very interested in what Nintendo will do with Switch's high specs for a Paper Mario game.

Personally I'd like to see them use it to have about 6 main partners right at the beginning of the game, that progress and develop with Mario. And I mean actually develop. Their own stories fleshed out throughout the entire game.
All the while Mario will have Paper Cappy (or something near equivalent) to take over enemies. I'd love to have the chance to play every species in battle.

That sounds interesting. I think I'd pretty much like another TTYD but with a fresh story, characters, locations, music, better graphics, new partners, new attacks, some tweaks to the battle system TTYD had, and better level design.

To be honest my desired future of Paper Mario is too big to say here but I would very much appreciate that.

If Nintendo could do all that they may just make my favourite game of all time.

I'd also like to see TTYD remade for Switch since basically nowadays you can't play it without either pirating or paying a very large amount of money.

 

[Vivian]

Another idea, to maybe match Odyssey, is a "Paper Mario Collage", it'd sort of be like the lego games where you can redesign yourself and everything around you, of course in huge places to explore unraveling some kind of mystery.

 

[MiracleDinner]

Another idea, to maybe match Odyssey, is a "Paper Mario Collage", it'd sort of be like the lego games where you can redesign yourself and everything around you, of course in huge places to explore unraveling some kind of mystery.

I'm not really sure what you mean as I've not played Odyssey myself but a character creator I don't really feel would fit in with Paper Mario Switch.

A level creator would be good. Honestly I want to see Super Paper Mario in Super Mario Maker. Because, like, unofficial software already exists for creating custom 3D levels such as Whitehole, so I don't feel it would be unrealistic or unwise to make an official one. And I think that as SPM switches between 2D and 3D and its 3D environments are still kind of tile-based, it would be the perfect opportunity to give creators a taste of 3D before a full step up to creating epic painting worlds, harbours, galaxies, or kingdoms, as well as representing and bringing back to life what is to me an underrated masterpiece.

The open world feel could suit Paper Mario very well if you ask me. I'm currently playing through Dry Dry Desert in PM64 for the first time and it works kinda but needs improvements. That section where they just spammed like 10 pokeys is not ok.

 

[Pokerninja2]

Super Mario Odyssey went pretty far from conventional Mario series traditions, giving us brand-new areas, NPCs, and bosses, all of which brim with personality, and I'm kind of expecting the side games to follow suit. And so far they have, Mario Tennis Aces has much more personality than Mario Tennis: Ultra Smash and Luigi's Mansion 3 is arguably the most expressive game in the series, with how much the characters and ghosts emote. Plus Miyamoto, the one who most people blame for how Sticker Star and Color Splash turned out said in a recent interview he tries to be less stingy with how the series is handled. Then you also have Tanabe, the one behind Sticker Star and Color Splash, saying that he and the team looked through videos, message boards, and more for criticisms on Luigi's Mansion: Dark Moon to make Luigi's Mansion 3.

Things are looking pretty bright, but is it because the sun's rising or the sun's setting? I have a feeling we'll get the next game or at least an announcement for it in 2020, but we'll need to wait and see where the series goes from here.

 

[Ray Trace]

Personally, I don't think Super Paper Mario will quite compare to Super Mario Galaxy. Super Paper Mario has always been a polarizing game, with people taking strong issue with its gameplay (many which think is lackluster especially for its genre) and its (I think it's terrible) story, whereas, Super Mario Galaxy has always been beloved since its inception, and its high Metacritic scores aren't any slouch. Super Mario Galaxy in my opinion, is one of the best games of its genre and nothing else can quite match up to it (there aren't any other 3D platformers that perform the gravity mechanic as well as Super Mario Galaxy has; there are 3D platformer that did it before it such as Sonic Adventure 2, but they're miserably executed...yes I hate Crazy Gadget as a level). Whereas, Super Paper Mario plays like a mediocre platformer RPG hybrid with a by-the-book story that's extremely common in its genre. It does have a very strong fanbase, but it also has a large share of detractors, myself included. Super Mario Galaxy got a (forgettable) sequel on top of that as well that's (I disagree with it) highly received as well.

Super Mario Sunshine also is one of the worse 3D Super Mario games, and I think Paper Mario: The Thousand-Year Door does its job better than Super Mario Sunshine did. My sister can elaborate on its flaws but me personally, even though I dislike Thousand-Year Door more than Paper Mario on the N64, after watching my sister experience Sunshine, I think I can safely say that Thousand-Year Door is a more polished experience and is clearly one of the better Paper Mario games compared to Sunshine's place in its series.

I feel like 3D Land and Sticker Star had separate problems on their own. Sticker Star had its development snubbed mid-way for a new gameplay mechanic that's terribly executed whereas, 3D Land played far too safe, though I still consider 3D Land and 3D World a good game with really good ideas (I mean, Mario is always known for its linearity, and those games actually feel closer to what Mario traditionally is and built his foundation on than the sandbox style from 64 onto Galaxy) compared to Sticker Star, where its new system was just practically inferior to the first two games. 3D World really is what 3D Land should have been, and I really want to see a sequel to that. Whereas, I don't think we need another Sticker Star-like game in the Paper Mario series.

So...I wouldn't quite draw the parallel between the two series. Hell, Paper Mario was heavily influenced by Squeenix's Super Mario RPG and was intended as a sequel to that game, so technically, it didn't even pioneer the series.

 

[Moldomré]

Hm, I don't think 3D Land is considered bad by a large group of people (especially not by my older brother, he thinks it's better than freakin' Odyssey). Sticker Star is though, so I don't think they're comparable.

 

[MiracleDinner]

Personally, I don't think Super Paper Mario will quite compare to Super Mario Galaxy. Super Paper Mario has always been a polarizing game, with people taking strong issue with its gameplay (many which think is lackluster especially for its genre) and its (I think it's terrible) story, whereas, Super Mario Galaxy has always been beloved since its inception, and its high Metacritic scores aren't any slouch. Super Mario Galaxy in my opinion, is one of the best games of its genre and nothing else can quite match up to it (there aren't any other 3D platformers that perform the gravity mechanic as well as Super Mario Galaxy has; there are 3D platformer that did it before it such as Sonic Adventure 2, but they're miserably executed...yes I hate Crazy Gadget as a level). Whereas, Super Paper Mario plays like a mediocre platformer RPG hybrid with a by-the-book story that's extremely common in its genre. It does have a very strong fanbase, but it also has a large share of detractors, myself included. Super Mario Galaxy got a (forgettable) sequel on top of that as well that's (I disagree with it) highly received as well.

Super Mario Sunshine also is one of the worse 3D Super Mario games, and I think Paper Mario: The Thousand-Year Door does its job better than Super Mario Sunshine did. My sister can elaborate on its flaws but me personally, even though I dislike Thousand-Year Door more than Paper Mario on the N64, after watching my sister experience Sunshine, I think I can safely say that Thousand-Year Door is a more polished experience and is clearly one of the better Paper Mario games compared to Sunshine's place in its series.

I feel like 3D Land and Sticker Star had separate problems on their own. Sticker Star had its development snubbed mid-way for a new gameplay mechanic that's terribly executed whereas, 3D Land played far too safe, though I still consider 3D Land and 3D World a good game with really good ideas (I mean, Mario is always known for its linearity, and those games actually feel closer to what Mario traditionally is and built his foundation on than the sandbox style from 64 onto Galaxy) compared to Sticker Star, where its new system was just practically inferior to the first two games. 3D World really is what 3D Land should have been, and I really want to see a sequel to that. Whereas, I don't think we need another Sticker Star-like game in the Paper Mario series.

So...I wouldn't quite draw the parallel between the two series. Hell, Paper Mario was heavily influenced by Squeenix's Super Mario RPG and was intended as a sequel to that game, so technically, it didn't even pioneer the series.

Yeah I get you. As I said in the OP I don't feel its a perfect analogy and might be better if the GC and Wii were swapped.

I know you're not the biggest fan of SPM and I'm not going to argue with you about SPM again but looking at most of the community it's generally loved, there's no denying that its story is highly praised and even its gameplay is liked by some. I liked it as a 9 year old and I can at least tolerate it now. To be honest it's arguable that SPM deserves a sequel or remake more so than TTYD since its concept has more unrealised potential whereas TTYD had a less flawed execution and only really needs to cut down on the backtracking, make a few tweaks to the combat, and upscaling the textures, after that they'd essentially have perfected TTYD's formula gameplay- and presentation-wise. But I don't want Nintendo to do that since that's not what most fans want right now. I mean, I'd like to have both a sequel and a remake to both ideally, but if I had to choose one of the two to be remade, I'd want Nintendo to do TTYD. And I want the next original Paper Mario game to use TTYD's formula.

I was very disappointed by Sunshine personally. People would always say that it was as good as Galaxy, it was an underrated masterpiece just like how I felt about SPM, and that got my hopes up too high. In actuality, the graphics are uncanny, the monotony grew obnoxious and the level design was at times infuriating. Moreover I think I find it too hard and again not really in the right way. I'm not saying I dislike it as a whole but I'd never place it in the same league as Galaxy, 3D World, or even 64 subjectively. Objectively I get it's probably better but I still couldn't justify placing it near Galaxy. Both subjectively and objectively I'd definitely say TTYD is a better executed game.

Yeah I haven't played either of the 3DS games yet despite owning the console, I literally just repeated what this person said in a YouTube comment to the most accurate wording I could remember.

I mean sure Super Mario RPG was a thing but Paper Mario 64 probably still invented a lot new things..... probably
Haven't played SMRPG either rip

To conclude I'd say it's an interesting thing to think about but it's not by any stretch an accurate comparison.

Hm, I don't think 3D Land is considered bad by a large group of people (especially not by my older brother, he thinks it's better than freakin' Odyssey). Sticker Star is though, so I don't think they're comparable.

I know but 3D Land is generally considered a disspointment by comparison as was Sticker Star, just Sticker Star was hated more intensely.

 

[Ray Trace]

I disagree that Super Paper Mario's story is universally praised. It's more like it's polarizing, as the entire game is. I've seen my fair share of people who dislike the story a lot. You've already discussed it with others how we felt about it. It's highly praised by people who think that the story ticks with them, but to others, it's a slobbering cliche mess of one. I've seen less people who think that its story is simply "okay" than it's great or terrible.

I do think think the platformer RPG hybrid does deserve a new Mario entry, since Mario platforming is supposed to be its strong point, just not under Paper Mario's name, but as a unique Mario RPG that does its own thing. Paper Mario should just stick with what the first two entries did and continue improving on those while another developer should handle the hypothetical RPG hybrid. There's so much to explore regarding Mario with that, and I think it would highly limit creativity if it was just another Paper Mario game in its universe. I would adore to see a new universe, with new characters, with a new setting instead, and hopefully a perfectly serviceable story in the style of, say, Mario & Luigi or the first Paper Mario that doesn't want me rolling my eyes so hard they pop out of my skull.

 

[MiracleDinner]

I disagree that Super Paper Mario's story is universally praised. It's more like it's polarizing, as the entire game is. I've seen my fair share of people who dislike the story a lot. You've already discussed it with others how we felt about it. It's highly praised by people who think that the story ticks with them, but to others, it's a slobbering cliche mess of one. I've seen less people who think that its story is simply "okay" than it's great or terrible.

I know. I'm not at all saying nobody hates it, but most people I've come across seemed to be favourable of the story.

I do think think the platformer RPG hybrid does deserve a new Mario entry, since Mario platforming is supposed to be its strong point, just not under Paper Mario's name, but as a unique Mario RPG that does its own thing. Paper Mario should just stick with what the first two entries did and continue improving on those while another developer should handle the hypothetical RPG hybrid. There's so much to explore regarding Mario with that, and I think it would highly limit creativity if it was just another Paper Mario game in its universe. I would adore to see a new universe, with new characters, with a new setting instead, and hopefully a perfectly serviceable story in the style of, say, Mario & Luigi or the first Paper Mario that doesn't want me rolling my eyes so hard they pop out of my skull.

I agree with you kind of. Super Paper Mario is my favourite video game of all time and I'm more than OK that it happened. What I'm not OK with is how Nintendo allowed it to interfere with what the series originally was.

 

[Ray Trace]

Eh, you should have seen the arguments in GameFAQs. Both sides are...a little too passionate at points. I mean, it's just a game. And heck, it's more interesting to talk about Super Paper Mario's story than it is to talk about Sticker Star's story. It's doing what it's supposed to do, entertaining me...just...not in the way it's intended to.

 

[MiracleDinner]

Eh, you should have seen the arguments in GameFAQs. Both sides are...a little too passionate at points. I mean, it's just a game. And heck, it's more interesting to talk about Super Paper Mario's story than it is to talk about Sticker Star's story. It's doing what it's supposed to do, entertaining me...just...not in the way it's intended to.

I judge from TheTopTens and YouTube, where most authors seem to say Super Paper Mario had a good story at the very least. I don't use GameFAQs.

 

[Vivian]

Yeah, 3D Land didn't really have anything to hate about it, it was more of a 'SMB3 but now can move around in every direction' sort of thing. Luckily they didn't try to claim that it was that in the literal sense, because then it would have been hated.
But the biggest complaint I hear about it is how they decided to not group levels by theme, or that the final boss is an elaborate platformer. Which isn't so bad really.
Just nothing extraordinary either, unless you're one of the lucky ones with 20/20 vision and no depth perception disabilities, who can experience it in full 3D. But even then, the textures are very simple, so if you're not a lucky one you're not really missing out.

 

[Ray Trace]

I judge from TheTopTens and YouTube, where most authors seem to say Super Paper Mario had a good story at the very least. I don't use GameFAQs.

I don't really use YouTubers either. In the end, it doesn't matter whether one group is bigger than the other. The detractors still exist, and still have very strong, unifying opinions of the game that simply can't get ignored. I don't see this occur with Galaxy, at least, not to the extent that I see with Super Paper Mario.

Yeah, 3D Land didn't really have anything to hate about it, it was more of a 'SMB3 but now can move around in every direction' sort of thing. Luckily they didn't try to claim that it was that in the literal sense, because then it would have been hated.
But the biggest complaint I hear about it is how they decided to not group levels by theme, or that the final boss is an elaborate platformer. Which isn't so bad really.
Just nothing extraordinary either, unless you're one of the lucky ones with 20/20 vision and no depth perception disabilities, who can experience it in full 3D. But even then, the textures are very simple, so if you're not a lucky one you're not really missing out.

If they were clever, they would have referenced the wacky Super Mario Land instead. But yeah, let's nostalgia whore Super Mario Bros. 3 for the umpteenth time, let's be safe.

 

[MiracleDinner]

I don't really use YouTubers either. In the end, it doesn't matter whether one group is bigger than the other. The detractors still exist, and still have very strong, unifying opinions of the game that simply can't get ignored. I don't see this occur with Galaxy, at least, not to the extent that I see with Super Paper Mario.

I definitely wouldn't say that Galaxy gets the same kind of hate that Super Paper Mario has, especially not back in 2007 when most people recieved Galaxy well whereas SPM was much more controversial, but Galaxy definitely has a few haters out there and most people nowadays like Super Paper Mario.

 

[Mcmadness]

If you think most people like SPM you haven't been hanging around long enough.

 

[Pokerninja2]

I definitely wouldn't say that Galaxy gets the same kind of hate that Super Paper Mario has, especially not back in 2007 when most people recieved Galaxy well whereas SPM was much more controversial, but Galaxy definitely has a few haters out there and most people nowadays like Super Paper Mario.

I've seen a lot more praise for Super Mario Galaxy than Super Paper Mario just on the basis of it being a mainline 3D Mario game which are undeniably the biggest games in the franchise, so it's naturally gonna get more attention and praise. It's just... math.

Honestly the bulk of praise I see for Super Paper Mario are those "The one game Nintendo wanted you to forget" or "hey, remember THIS!?" YouTube videos.

 

[MiracleDinner]

Honestly the bulk of praise I see for Super Paper Mario are those "The one game Nintendo wanted you to forget" or "hey, remember THIS!?" YouTube videos.

I mean just scrolling through comments of YouTube videos to do with Paper Mario it seems that most people like it.

To test I just went to Hero's "What happened to SPM" and he himself said that he didn't like Super Paper Mario but when I went to the comments sure there were a few people who agreed with him but there were a huge number of people who came to its defense.

 

[Pokerninja2]

I mean just scrolling through comments of YouTube videos to do with Paper Mario it seems that most people like it.

To test I just went to Hero's "What happened to SPM" and he himself said that he didn't like Super Paper Mario but when I went to the comments sure there were a few people who agreed with him but there were a huge number of people who came to its defense.

Compared to how much Super Paper Mario sold, that's still a pretty small sample size. And even within the comments section of those videos they're still pretty few and far in between.

 

[MiracleDinner]

Compared to how much Super Paper Mario sold, that's still a pretty small sample size. And even within the comments section of those videos they're still pretty few and far in between.

It's not as if we can test every person who played these games "did you like it" just from experience, the majority of people whom I have heard express their opinion on Super Paper Mario, thought of it positively.

Btw the criticial reception was good as well but slightly behind the first two PMs.

 

[Vivian]

I thought BLOF said it well, SPM has a fandom. Outside of the fandom it's generally disliked by the Mario RPG Fandom.