PM:StickerStar

[AsherCD]

why do people think StickerStar is bad, i mean



did you just say "we need to bully people who play a certain game" then happened to look at PM:SS and go "okay"



you dont even play it

if you do, then don't say "actually i play it you ignoramus"




just why do people hate it, its an interesting game with interesting mechanics inside it. respond asap if you see this

 

[Waluigi Time]

Simply put, it took away many aspects that people liked about the previous games (partners, original characters, badges, a leveling system, any sort of story beyond the absolute bare minimum etc.) and added things that people didn't, like a battle system that revolves entirely around consumable items, and it marked the beginning of a general change in the series' direction that fans weren't happy with. To add insult to injury, early footage shows that it was planned to be closer to what people were hoping for.

 

[Milo Thatch]

I didn't hate it and don't dislike it either (which causes me to have a vastly different opinion from quite a few Mario fans), but it is definitely the weakest Paper Mario game I've played (compared to Paper Mario, Super Paper Mario, and so far Paper Mario: The Origami King) as the worlds (EDIT: and even more so characters and story by far) are not that original sometimes, and there isn't motivation to battle normal enemies at all as you use up stickers, the only reward being coins to buy more stickers. That being said the game is still fun, just one of the by far weaker, if not the weakest Mario RPG.

 

[Ray Trace]

It's probably the Mario franchise's most overrhated game, but a lot of it stems from the sheer disappointment of the final product we got and much of the fanbase who adores the first three games in terms of consistent setting, structure, and characters. Sticker Star isn't a bad game in of itself, but because the changes directly affected what people loved about the first three games in a negative manner, it became a little bit personal, especially seeing like recurring characters such as the cooks, partners, Merlon clan, etc, get replaced by generic Toad NPCs.

Is the hate justified? Some parts, no. Too much people blame a named person behind this, whether it's Miyamoto or Tanabe while ignoring the faceless execs who additionally play a role in shaping the Paper Mario games into what we know now (such as when Tanabe mentioned that the developers need to stick with a consistent brand recognizability with their characters and thus can't edit the physical attributes of Toads, Koopas, etc any more). Does the dislike of the game come from a reasonable place with reasonable expectations? Yes.

 

[Mcmadness]

It's better than it's immediate predecessor. Though it's still ultimately a mediocre game.

 

[Fawfulthegreat64]

Simply put, it marked a very unnecessary directional shift in a series that I thought was going in an amazing direction before it. The previous game had the highest stakes in the franchise with all of reality on the line, the best cast of villains in the series, and the heaviest story with undertones of death, loss, and grief. The previous game before that was also very dark by Mario standards, took Mario to incredibly interesting and subversive scenarios, and had perhaps the greatest NPC cast the franchise has known. It also had best girl, Vivian, who deserved to be a mainstay in the series.

Then for absolutely no good reason, they pulled it back, and not just a little bit, they outright went complete 180 and turned Paper Mario into just another generic Mario game in terms of world and characters. They could have just made another game like the original Paper Mario where it's in the Mushroom Kingdom and Bowser is the villain but the world is rich with characters good and bad that aren't necessarily all base designs from the platformers.

The interviews where they speak so proudly of what they did to the series pissed me off, and with each new game, though the games themselves were improvements over SS, came new interviews hammering home how permanent the changes in SS are. Now, Origami King is a genuinely good game, but the interviews surrounding it were downright depressing to read. All these "Since Paper Mario: Sticker Star, it's not possible to modify Mario characters (no more Goombella or Bobbery etc) or create original characters that touch on the Mario world (no more Vivian, Doopliss etc)," and it's also "no longer possible" to visually portray age, gender, etc in Toad NPCs when those are literally the things that made them so interesting in the first two games.

Sticker Star is the most sterile game not only in the Paper Mario series, but the RPGs in general with the possible exception of Paper Jam (a game I have similar gripes with). It basically directly and intentionally avoids every design element that defined my love for Paper Mario, and it has far more influence on the current series than any of the previous games, that's why I hate it.

All that aside, the gameplay design is also very poor. I could forgive that if the story & characters were on par with the previous games (SPM doesn't have the best gameplay in the world either but I still adore it), but with nothing to distract from it, it's even more glaring. The lack of EXP means there's no point to battling. You just get coins and stickers, both of which are littered around the world for free. The battle system provides no "free" attack option (the equivalent to the basic Jump and Hammer in past games that used no FP) so it's entirely possible to run out of attacks altogether (though improbable given how you're unlikely to use more stickers than you gain). There's also the poor puzzle design, making bosses puzzles and making it not only possible but likely for a player to stumble into a boss fight without the item the game expects you to use to defeat it, which is often located in a random unrelated place in the world and entirely skippable. With the weakness item, bosses are almost impossible to lose against, negating the challenge. But without it, they're nearly impossible NOT to lose against, which also isn't a fair challenge. Compare that to previous games where each boss could be tackled in a different way each playthrough with many possible builds and strategies to offer a unique experience each time.

This analysis does an excellent job of summing up most people's gripes with this game. It's nearly 4 hours long so you'll need to buckle in for a while to watch it, but trust me, the time is well spent to comprehensively break down this game and explain why it's flawed.

Spoiler: Paper Mario Sticker Star ULTIMATE Analysis | Red Review

 

[Cocoa]

hot take

sticker star isnt that bad

 

[Milo Thatch]

hot take

sticker star isnt that bad

It really isn't, it's just very bad by Mario RPG standards and in terms of that Nintendo has had a boner for repeating as many flaws as possible in Sticker Star in every Mario RPG since, except for maybe Mario & Luigi: Dream Team.

 

[Teedgee]

sticker star is one of the two paper marios i havent played, so take what i say from an outsiders perspective

the mandates are baffling, like, i get that miyamoto wanted to make it simple, but.......why? if anything, since the previous 3 did as well as they did, i dont see the point of changing how everything works. the gameplay being different is honestly weirder since there were no mandates regarding that, and im just talking about the disposable weapons, and rpg doesnt need exp to be fun. i mean im glad that origami king is making a change for the better, removing most things that made sticker star and color splash as polarizing as they are.

i cant call sticker star a bad game since i havent played it, but a lot of the decisions theyve made make no sense to me

 

[Milo Thatch]

"Hey guys let's make sure each new Mario RPG only has things in common with the most unpopular Mario game of all time, instead of being at least closer to the first three games which people actually liked, and for valid reasons"

 

[zel]

This analysis does an excellent job of summing up most people's gripes with this game. It's nearly 4 hours long so you'll need to buckle in for a while to watch it, but trust me, the time is well spent to comprehensively break down this game and explain why it's flawed.

i wanted to say i jumped on this vid just bc you said its a nearly 4 hour long game review i love stuff like this

anywayyyy i have no opinion on the game ive never played any paper marios

 

[Milo Thatch]

anywayyyy i have no opinion on the game ive never played any paper marios

You're still missing out.

 

[Waluigi Time]

You're still missing out.

zelen no save yourself becoming a paper mario fan in this day and age is just setting yourself up for a lifetime of disappointment and heartache

or something a lot less dramatic but still undesirable i guess

 

[zel]

theres like one i want to play and also realistically could anyway but i dont wanna bother with the ripoff that is the nintendo online expansion pack for a long while

 

[Mcmadness]

"Hey guys let's make sure each new Mario RPG only has things in common with the most unpopular Mario game of all time, instead of being at least closer to the first three games which people actually liked, and for valid reasons"

NSMB is the most unpopular Mario game of all time?

Sales figures say otherwise.

 

[Koopa con Carne]

The negativity that permeated and still permeates online discourse around this game is quite hyperbolic, in my opinion. Judged in general terms against the bulk of other Nintendo titles released since the Wii, I think it's still got firm footing—it has good level design, tight controls, and certainly does offer a unique, albeit experimental, take on turn-based combat, the frustrating boss battle fights notwithstanding. I've said it before and I'll say it again: I liked it.

That's not to say the fanbase's vexation is wholly invalid, though, as I can definitely empathise with some points of contention. Though it's got its own merits, I think the game utterly failed at making any long-standing connection with me. The universe comprised in it is forgettable, sterile, decrepit; where previous games made an attempt at differentiating themselves from the rest of the franchise and even among themselves, having some of their own identities in terms of setting and characters, Sticker Star strives no further than "Mario game, Mushroom Kingdom, save princess from spiky turtle". Surely, one can invoke that this was not exclusive to Sticker Star, that this brand cleansing was more of a widespread phenomenon that took over other Mario games from the same period, such as Super Mario 3D Land and New Super Mario Bros. 2. But a question that is yet to be answered by any interview is, why, in spite of other games eventually moving on from said brand cleansing, was Sticker Star made into a template for future Paper Marios? Why, as I'm playing Colour Splash, it feels as though I'm merely retreading Sticker Star's world?

 

[Milo Thatch]

NSMB is the most unpopular Mario game of all time?

Sales figures say otherwise.

Well I meant that Sticker Star was the most unpopular Mario game. Although if that's more of an analogy for that Sticker Star still sold really well, yeah but a lot of people who bought the game ended up hating it, so by unpopular I meant "not liked"

zelen no save yourself becoming a paper mario fan in this day and age is just setting yourself up for a lifetime of disappointment and heartache

or something a lot less dramatic but still undesirable i guess

Well I still legitimately like Paper Mario: The Origami King despite its non-boss battle system sometimes sucking. Like the overworld is good and has fun levels that don't feel entirely generic, the characters are interesting, and the sound effects and soundtrack are really good.

 

[Ray Trace]

The lack of EXP means there's no point to battling.

The lack of EXP isn't inherently a problem with these games, but rather, how it's designed around it. Lots of loot-based games such as Diablo II or Borderlands (while also having a level up system but it wasn't the primary driver behind your stats) has fun loot that gives you better equipment the more you progress in the game, and that's the primary way of leveling up. The main problem with Sticker Star is that it doesn't know what it's doing and it made loot drops be boring and unrewarding, so it in turn, made the battles unrewarding (that's not to say about the quality of the turn-based combat in of itself which is a separate subject).

Also, people overstate the importance of the star points in the first two games. You stop getting EXP from baddies altogether if you ever needed to backtrack to a certain chapter, and you'll be fine in the game if you avoid all enemy encounters and did only the required fights. I also personally think the star point system in the first two games are very flawed.

The battle system provides no "free" attack option (the equivalent to the basic Jump and Hammer in past games that used no FP) so it's entirely possible to run out of attacks altogether (though improbable given how you're unlikely to use more stickers than you gain).

According to what I read on MarioWiki (on the battle system section of Paper Mario: Sticker Star's article), Kersti gives you stickers if you happen to run out mid-battle.

There's also the poor puzzle design, making bosses puzzles and making it not only possible but likely for a player to stumble into a boss fight without the item the game expects you to use to defeat it, which is often located in a random unrelated place in the world and entirely skippable.

Using Things against bosses is terrible design and I completely agree with this. What's the point of even having bosses if you can just either not win against them (or become extremely hard, boring, and tedious to beat) or win against them instantly? They might as well be a road hazard; in fact, them being a simple giant rock on the road you need scissors for to find around the world is much better game design.

Also, one thing you missed that I think was a pretty big deal in the first two games: the badge system. Badges were a type of fun loot and they're extremely customizable. While are imbalanced (cough cough Power Bounce), they're very fun to play with, and the removal of them also causes the battle system to suffer as it is. You can't pull off crazy Danger Mario builds, you can't try out a Hammer-only build, etc. The defensive builds are especially neutered by this, as defensive items are also consumable rather than receiving a passive boost from them. Stickers aren't such a great patch for them as they'll cause this "better save them until I really need them situation" type of scarcity while badge attacks can easily be refillable with syrups and flowers alike.

Alt least Sticker Star recognizes how powerful the Infiniijump stickers are...?

 

[Milo Thatch]

And Origami King brought badges, but now they're broken and overpowered!

 

[LeftyGreenMario]

sticker star is one of the two paper marios i havent played, so take what i say from an outsiders perspective

the mandates are baffling, like, i get that miyamoto wanted to make it simple, but.......why? if anything, since the previous 3 did as well as they did, i dont see the point of changing how everything works. the gameplay being different is honestly weirder since there were no mandates regarding that, and im just talking about the disposable weapons, and rpg doesnt need exp to be fun. i mean im glad that origami king is making a change for the better, removing most things that made sticker star and color splash as polarizing as they are.

i cant call sticker star a bad game since i havent played it, but a lot of the decisions theyve made make no sense to me

I can't pinpoint exactly the reasoning but I can think of contributions that lead to that decision. Miyamoto and Tanabe are scapegoats, a concrete face for something to blame when it comes to mediocre gameplay. But all decisions are by committee, not by two guys. What I'm speculating the reasoning for the developers' inability to alter existing characters too drastically is that designs are standardized now and this "mandate" is to reinforce these standards and help people recognize them. Sure, it's not like people will mistake a red-orange elongated Mushroom for a Banana, but when it comes to cementing images in customer's heads (which can help them identify the products), they probably want to stick to this standard. Before the mid 2000s, designs changed around a lot as Nintendo tried to get a footing on the strongest designs for their characters, props, and environments.

People like to focus on enemies and characters, but the standardization is series-wide. Look at something like the Super Mushroom. There was a lot of variation for this item from its first iteration in Super Mario Bros. Proportions were played with. Faces changed from game to game. Colors were all over the place. Spots on the Mushrooms also varied a lot. And then New Super Mario Bros. came around and then that's when Nintendo finally decided this is the strongest iterationm the one with the skin tone face, rounded base, and three big white spots.

Something seemingly minor and inconsequential as the ? Block? Again, that actually had a lot of minor variations, something even Mario & Luigi Superstar Saga remarked on. The first one looked rather metallic, the others had rounded edges and no paneling details. The shape of the question mark also varies. Then New Super Mario Bros. came along and took a little bit of everything: the paneling, the shape of the ? from Super Mario Bros. 3. But key here: they still had the ? scrolling, which Super Mario Galaxy finally made stationary. This is finally when the development team was like, "this is it, we finally got a good ? block" and then the development teams after this could focus on other ideas rather than designing yet another ? block.

The developers for Super Mario Odyssey DID spend a lot of time on how the ? Block ought to look. There were A LOT of sketches made for it; treasure chest-shaped ones, jerry cans, "like BioShock" (yeah I'm not making this up), one even looked like a CRT monitor. But they ultimately stuck with the original for being more easily used in the worlds. It's such a strong design, I can't blame them. Sho Murate from The Art of Super Mario Odyssey did say that "the designer in charge of the ? Block suffered through lots of fine-tuning, but I believe the results speak for themselves". Maybe the versatility is the point here and the versatility works.

 

[Fawfulthegreat64]

According to what I read on MarioWiki (on the battle system section of Paper Mario: Sticker Star's article), Kersti gives you stickers if you happen to run out mid-battle.

I believe this isn't entirely accurate. There is a way to get stickers when you're out, but you get them by successfully blocking an enemy attack, and they're completely random so you could very easily get a jump sticker when the enemy is spiky. It's a very roundabout, unnecessary system when just providing a free weak jump/hammer option would have worked fine. Especially since you essentially get that when you first strike: that doesn't use a sticker.

Yes the badge system was another sorely missed feature. I didn't want to list everything I feel like Sticker Star was missing because I already had a wall of text to begin with, that's why I put a link to a video, but yeah.

And Origami King brought badges, but now they're broken and overpowered!

I don't think Origami King's equipment holds a candle to badges. There's way less of them and they feel like a half-hearted inclusion of something vaguely comparable to badges instead of just... bringing back badges.

Basically all of Origami King's "returning features" from the first 2 games feel like "we have X at home" equivalents if you know what I mean. Like it has partners but they're temporary/only one has a field ability/they have one battle attack that you don't control/none of them are completely original characters etc.

But that game is still good imo. Even if I still want a full return to form in the next game. In both gameplay and story/characters (no more bullshit IP team restrictions about NPCs or "touching on the Mario universe" or whatever bs. Just... allow characters in the same vein as TTYD again)

 

[Ray Trace]

You know what I fear in the future?

A remake of Paper Mario 64 in the modern Paper Mario style, except it has the Bowser's Minions treatment. All Toads get replaced by their cookie-cutter counterparts. No more Bedouin Toads. No more gardener Toads. No more Vanna T., Russ T., Tayce T., etc. No more unique Toad Town Dojo characters. Merlon tribe might get replaced by Magikoopas, or more Toads. Same applies to the Koopa Troopas, no more Koopa Koot, no more Koopa Troopas in sunglasses, Kolorado would be replaced by a clean-shaven Koopa. Kent. C Koopa is just a big Koopa with glasses. That Yoshi Tribe leader is replaced by a regular-looking Yoshi. Clubbas are replaced with regular Spikes. Kammy would be replaced by Kamek. Jr. Troopa, maybe Bowser Jr.

Worst part is, this is actually realistic expectations. Too realistic. That's exactly what I expect to happen if they ever did remade Paper Mario 64.

Koopa Kid and the Mario Party Toads got cleansed from Mario Party Superstars. Paper Mario 64 isn't sacred enough to avoid getting cleansed in this manner.

 

[Fawfulthegreat64]

I feel like Kammy at least might be safe. Toadsworth was kept in the M&L remakes despite the non-remake series having retired him. It would suck to see the Toads homogenized though. I don't think every original character would be redesigned. M&L kept most enemy designs while redesigning only a few of them like Troopeas. Certain unique Toads original to the RPGs stuck around too, like Dr. Toadley. M&L also didn't have names for its optional NPCs, PM does.

 

[Koopa con Carne]

You know what I fear in the future?

A remake of Paper Mario 64 in the modern Paper Mario style, except it has the Bowser's Minions treatment. All Toads get replaced by their cookie-cutter counterparts. No more Bedouin Toads. No more gardener Toads. No more Vanna T., Russ T., Tayce T., etc. No more unique Toad Town Dojo characters. Merlon tribe might get replaced by Magikoopas, or more Toads. Same applies to the Koopa Troopas, no more Koopa Koot, no more Koopa Troopas in sunglasses, Kolorado would be replaced by a clean-shaven Koopa. Kent. C Koopa is just a big Koopa with glasses. That Yoshi Tribe leader is replaced by a regular-looking Yoshi. Clubbas are replaced with regular Spikes. Kammy would be replaced by Kamek. Jr. Troopa, maybe Bowser Jr.

Worst part is, this is actually realistic expectations. Too realistic. That's exactly what I expect to happen if they ever did remade Paper Mario 64.

Koopa Kid and the Mario Party Toads got cleansed from Mario Party Superstars. Paper Mario 64 isn't sacred enough to avoid getting cleansed in this manner.

The Paper Mario fanbase would collectively melt into radioactive sludge.

 

[Vivian]

I absolutely love Sticker Star. It may be my TCG fanaticism eyes talking. But I also like the refreshing break from complex in-depth plot. Easy feel good beat up the enemies kind of game. It's simple, quirky, and sure the Toads look the same, but they got spunk, personality, dialogue that makes them interesting. The only thing I can say I really disliked is an issue I have with the series alltogether.. characters like Kirsti talking for Mario. I know that's one thing that wont change though.

One additional good thing I'll say for it, is having Bowser replayable at the end is a nice touch. Especially sense his minion summons are semi-random, each match is slightly different.