The Mario Mandate™

Ray Trace

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Ray Trace
Discuss probably the most misunderstood design principle in the Mario series.

Several things that I'd like to clear up about it.

Some of the named people involved in the interviews (eg Tanabe, Miyamoto) are NOT the main drivers behind it nor are they solely responsible.
These people are credited as the producers of games, particularly the RPGs, and not the directors, and this is on top of project management being made up of multiple people who have similar positions. What a producer essentially does is that they're the managerial position behind the people working in a company. Producers are the people who relay information from higher ups around and message the overall direction the game is going forwards. They're called the "glue that holds the team" together for a reason, they're primarily responsible for talking with workers, scheduling them for work, general maintenance, that sort of thing. People like Tanabe and Miyamoto generally know the overall production of the game since producers are directly involved in pretty much all aspects in some form, and it is possible for them to take on expanded roles as producers can work on creative decisions, but they're generally chosen for interviews because...well because of that knowledge they possess and they know how to answer interview formats. Additionally, games where they have less involvement in such as Mario Sports titles and Mario Party games also are subject to the same design criticisms that Paper Mario has received.

Game development is designed by committee. Blaming a single person who somehow is also the most exposed and well-known name to how the mandate is dictated is juvenile and naive. Even blaming the main director of how a game turns out is not a wise criticism to have because they're also influenced by higher up decisions, schedules, deadlines, etc. Yes, it is possible that they're ultimately responsible to why a game turned out as it is but more likely than not, it's a culmination of factors that led to why a product is as it is than a single one.

Design restrictions aren't exactly a new thing.
Character designs are restrictive by nature, bound to a branding, and all of Nintendo's characters need to adhere to a specific "mandate" at all times, even in earlier Mario days. Mario games in the earlier eras have gotten through many variations until a design is picked because the art directors behind them felt like it was the strongest, not just the enemies received design changes but even obstacles such as ? Blocks and Brick Blocks. While it is correct that Mario games nowadays are much more restrictive when it comes to character design to that character body type may not be modified anymore, this is primarily done to unify the Mario brand and to keep a consistency about it. Not just the Mario series has gone through a solidified design as time goes on, especially in a long running series like it, Sonic has a fairly unified design since Sonic Adventure 2 and hasn't seen major alterations since, with a few exceptions such as Sonic Boom.

Whether increased restrictions on characters is a good or bad thing is subjective. I personally don't like restricting the ability to modify the physical physique of a Toad or other Mario species. However, understanding where it comes from and why it's like this comes a long way and helps you discuss the negatives of the tighter design restriction with a clearer mind.

Ultimately, we are a minority, and we aren't being pandered to.
This is difficult to grasp but a staggering amount of people play Mario games and are unaware of the design restrictions or even what goes into behind them. Maybe if someone originally grew up playing Paper Mario and then went into Origami King they may notice a difference in character presentation but it's not something they generally worry about. Nintendo is much more aware of their audience than we are, and they know the vast majority of their playerbase doesn't pay attention to that sort of detail, and if, say, all Koopas and all Toads look alike, people will recognize them better rather than notice the weird shift in designs between games. Mario is much more of a unified brand than it has been and far more people are playing Mario games now than they were back in the GCN era. Having a consistent design is pretty mandatory for a brand this huge. This is on top of a game series where developers are primarily not focused on lore nor story elements, but how to make a fun game first and foremost; most energy spent in developing these games are for mechanical, technical reasons rather than story purposes. It's been said that Nintendo sees their games as products, not works of art, and this is best highlighted with the tighter restrictive model across the Mario branding.

As I said, none of this is above criticism. I personally am not a fan of why it's like this. But, it's best to criticize the design restrictions when you understand what it is, why it is, and perhaps understand some aspects of what roles game developers say.
 
I have a hard time believing the casual gamer is so dumb they can't distinguish a normal Dry Bones from a Dry Bones with a darker hue and a spike.

If they want to unify a species, make it through a singular character a la Toad or Yoshi. If they really want to establish a template of sorts and drive a point home, make "clones" and grant them super minor NPC roles. Don't deprive all members of that species of individual characteristics, because the game's presentation risks becoming boring fast. ToK fortunately alleviates this somewhat, but even then the characters are more like clones at a costume party than individuals proper.
 
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This is difficult to grasp but a staggering amount of people play Mario games and are unaware of the design restrictions or even what goes into behind them. Maybe if someone originally grew up playing Paper Mario and then went into Origami King they may notice a difference in character presentation but it's not something they generally worry about. Nintendo is much more aware of their audience than we are, and they know the vast majority of their playerbase doesn't pay attention to that sort of detail, and if, say, all Koopas and all Toads look alike, people will recognize them better rather than notice the weird shift in designs between games.
THANK YOU!!! I've been saying this for a while, heck, I fall under this. I'm not even sure what's going on here but I'm glad to see that someone else recognizes that the average Nintendo fan isn't a savvy gamer, and that that's who Nintendo caters to.
 
This x10
Some of the named people involved in the interviews (eg Tanabe, Miyamoto) are NOT the main drivers behind it nor are they solely responsible.
These people are credited as the producers of games, particularly the RPGs, and not the directors, and this is on top of project management being made up of multiple people who have similar positions. What a producer essentially does is that they're the managerial position behind the people working in a company. Producers are the people who relay information from higher ups around and message the overall direction the game is going forwards. They're called the "glue that holds the team" together for a reason, they're primarily responsible for talking with workers, scheduling them for work, general maintenance, that sort of thing. People like Tanabe and Miyamoto generally know the overall production of the game since producers are directly involved in pretty much all aspects in some form, and it is possible for them to take on expanded roles as producers can work on creative decisions, but they're generally chosen for interviews because...well because of that knowledge they possess and they know how to answer interview formats. Additionally, games where they have less involvement in such as Mario Sports titles and Mario Party games also are subject to the same design criticisms that Paper Mario has received.

Game development is designed by committee. Blaming a single person who somehow is also the most exposed and well-known name to how the mandate is dictated is juvenile and naive. Even blaming the main director of how a game turns out is not a wise criticism to have because they're also influenced by higher up decisions, schedules, deadlines, etc. Yes, it is possible that they're ultimately responsible to why a game turned out as it is but more likely than not, it's a culmination of factors that led to why a product is as it is than a single one.

I hate how fandoms, in general, have to give every issue a face y'know? It just ignores how this sort of thing actually works. It's just basically a fandom trying to make itself a narrow tunnel to funnel all of it's hate to one person. If there's no object of hate, where am I supposed to fling my garbage?!
People who try to find a single person to blame can have some valid critiques, it's just the way they're going with sharing those critiques is awful.
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I do think that the solidified designs are just a natural byproduct of the Super Mario brand growing and finding it's footing. The series has bounced around ideas and picked up what felt the strongest. Honestly, I'm totally fine with all the characters finally having a general consistent design across games. Now, don't misunderstand, I'm an absolute nut for old Mario stuff around that era where they were still trying to find some direction. That just, personally, will always have it's own unique charm to me. Though tbh the designs we have now imo are just the best they've ever been.
One person here? Or on the Discord? Someone that's got an account the boards, used the ? Blocks as a example and I loved it because it just sorta encapsulates my thoughts
I swear I wish I could find it and like copy and paste it in a doc for later use freals.
But uh basically
The block's design changed a bit.
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They kept it sort of the same at the start, only adding and changing, in the grand scheme of things, small things.
Then they started experimenting then NSMB rolled around, where they pretty much took the strongest aspects of the blocks before and made the strongest ? block design to date. They've since pretty much used that design with only subtle changes since then.
All this to say that the standard designs of characters and items that we have now were found after a lot of experimentation, Nintendo then rolled with those designs, ultimately making the brand more consistent all around.
Personally, while I think the designs we have now are the strongest they've been ever, and get way too much flack from those damn Paper Mario fan millennials, Nintendo should still try to experiment with designs, they can still improve upon them. I don't expect any radical changes anytime soon but slightly notable changes aren't out of the question and would be welcome.

it's like 10pm while I'm writing this post so I've might of not written this as well as I really wanted to, and might've missed some things and goofed up parts, but like I really just want to get this post in before I go to bed eek
eat up my pitiful attempt at a wall
 
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I have a hard time believing the casual gamer is so dumb they can't distinguish a normal Dry Bones from a Dry Bones with a darker hue and a spike.
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I spent ages watching gameplay of Paper Mario and TTYD not knowing that this was a Dry Bones, and I'm on a god damn Mario forum. I perfectly expect, and think it's reasonable, for the average person to not be able to recognise the wacky Dry Bones designs that the Mario RPGs decided they needed for whatever reason.

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Like, this is going completely off the rails! What the hell is this? You expect me to believe that this is a Dry Bones? It has none of the features of one, it's just a skeleton of a Koopa (I think). And yes, I'm expecting someone to waltz and go "haha, isn't that just what a Dry Bones is" and no, it isn't. Every character in the Mario franchise has a specific design, including Dry Bones.

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dry bones party baby (woo)
I'm not going to go into every little detail and difference here, but the most obvious issue is the head. Then general colouring issues, the one in Superstar Saga that doesn't even have a shell or stand up. Yeah I'm not expecting casual gamers to be able to recognise these if I can't.


oh and remember how they normalised all of the of the designs in the remake of Superstar Saga to keep it consistent with the rest of the series?
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well they got away with Dry Bones yet again. Is this even a Dry Bones at this point? (no it isn't, and that's factual).
 
in PM's case, it's zombie-like and has a shell, and i think the games additionally tattle them as "Dry Bones". the link is pretty conspicuous, imho, enough so that they should still be recognisable. i don't remember being befuddled by their existence when i encountered them in SPM, which was around the time i started playing Mario games in general.
 
I'd rather we don't resort to calling the casual audience dumb, thank you very much
 
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I'm going to take a moment to critique this awful collage which has just the nerves to call itself an "official guide". There's so many things wrong with it, like every aspect of it is bullsh*t, reeks of stewing bitterness that recalls me about the adage of older people yelling at clouds, and demonstrates how little some people understand game development.

For starters, these "eras" are complete asspulls. Soul era? You're a bit too early. Dark Souls has more of a claim to that "era" than you. They cherry pick 2007 for some reason as a [redacted] era (using the r-word doesn't help your credibility; you just look like an asshole), and they pick four Mario games that have nothing in common with each other except for design decisions someone found personally strange (Strikers Charged definitely leaves out context considering, style-wise, it's basically Super Mario Strikers super-charged). Why is Mario Party 8 here? Sure the visuals were a bit crummy, but apparently the only thing worth of note is that they introduced a new character... which is weird because Mario Party 6 also did this and it's part of their favorite "soul" era. I noted that the human characters get to be in older "soul" games while being entirely absent in later games, which disregards that most human characters even in that era are limited to handhelds and are playable in console usually just through transfer, Mario Golf 64 being a notable exception. It's such a weird choice to list these human additions in Mario Tennis handhelds as part of a "soul" when the handhelds are infamous for their dissipated Mario lineup that the game suffers for being a Mario game. Do they want 40 human characters who don't even look all that great design-wise and like 6 Mario characters, omitting key ones including Wario? They even list Mario Power Tennis as their supposed "golden age" game despite that game's roster being virtually on par with Mario Tennis Aces with no "unique" "new" human characters, no RPG mode, etc, which in turn is extremely similar to Mario Tennis 64. Are they thinking about the courts in Power Tennis versus Aces or Tennis Open, even though Tennis 64 has a worse court lineup than either Power Tennis or Tennis Open, and Tennis Open has a solid selection of courts? You can make a case for the whack DK courts with Kritters and Kremlings, the WarioWare court, the two Sunshine courts, and the Luigi's Mansion court but Tennis Open had the Observatory and DK Jungle too as well as the inside of Peach's Castle.

Also, those designs that they rip on on the bottom right of the collage, a lot of these were standardized during the supposed "soul" era. Hammer Bro.'s current design is from the mid 2000s. Hell, you know what's in Soul era? Your least favorite game, New Super Mario Bros.. They also cherry-picked these examples, as the Beanerang Bros. are still fine, same for the Dry Bones. The inconsistent sprite job is primarily from budget constraints, made way more apparent after AlphaDream filed bankruptcy and shuttered. I don't even like how Sniper Bill's changed, but that's not mandrake, that's a budget constraint. Same thing for Troopea, which is an easier sprite edit. Sure, it's a bit baffling that the Dry Bones remained quad ped but maybe its attack patterns made it more awkward to reuse the sprite and so it's a higher priority than completely respriting Troopea. Boo? Not an acceptable example either. I don't see..... what's so unique about Superstar Saga Boo.

I don't understand the desire to label "Super Mario Party" as soulless. You can criticize it all you want for the game design and tacky box art, but from an aesthetic standpoint, I can easily counter your claims and say that Super Mario Party contains a lot of love and charm put into it. The co-op, you can have your pals do a high-five (or not, which ticks off your character). The river mode takes a photo in the end with your buddies when you complete it. The main hub has the roster stretching as an idle. There's a mode where you dance and jive to Waluigi. When you get a star, you see portraits of other characters disappointed. The losing characters of one food-related minigame just do friendly idle chatter in the background rather than be sad. The idles of characters holding their dice block and waiting their turns. There's a lot of charm in the game, maybe the physical designs aren't to your liking, but you can't deny they put in so many small good animations when they didn't have to.

It's the same for Mario Tennis Aces. Sure, it doesn't have the win lose animations or the trophy animations that I really liked in the previous Mario Tennis console games, but it has so many unique animations, has a surprising amount of cinematics, but this isn't attributable to some sort of "mandate" or Watanabe, this is just budgeting given that Camelot is not exactly a top budget studio. You have to be a real grump to look at some of the cinematics and scoff for being "soulless".

There's the description of the "soulless" era when they talk about how Mario RPGs have to be "homogenous" and... what? Paper Mario's at its most experimental. The gameplay certainly isn't "homogenous"; it actually deviates a lot from standard turn based JRPG format. Mario + Rabbids is actually relatively really daring and unprecedented in the series, despite not using mooks wearing a scarf. Puzzle & Dragons also dropped there, and it's a fun spin on the formula, but, uh, it's also an RPG. Oh, and that game Mario + Rabbids also has the cutscenes and stuff in a similar vein of Mario Tennis Aces. It's funny they use a screenshot from the Origami King that looks really fun and charming to make it look "soulless", why not cherry pick a landscape shot at a bad view. Also, why did they use the generic Star Rush box? Cherrypicking? And there's that ludicrous "Mario characters are not allowed to convey different emotions or act wildly out of character". ... What??? What do they mean by this???? "act wildly out of character" isn't something you'd want do for established characters. Mario going on a violent rampage and hitting Peach is acting wildly out of character, that doesn't make it desirable at all. That statement alone earns an irritated Mario from me.

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The top right part of the collage is just dumbass speculation using amalgamation unrelated games he's just part of a component of the development team that ultimately scapegoats and makes personal attacks at one guy as responsible for ALL the decisions made throughout the series (but they also made a gross personal attack at Miyamoto for being "senile"). It's gross as hell, considering the severity of what he's done amounts to just making style choices the collage author doesn't agree with, and I feel this is ripe for harassment and uglier things directed at someone I feel has not as much control over the series as the collage author thinks they do. There's a post with little context, no sourcing, little verification, and is super vague.

There's a small collage here if just strawmanning the developers as authoritarian and dominant. I'm sure maybe some developers grumbled at Miyamoto's judgement, but holy cow I also don't think Miyamoto acted the way people think they do. It also cherry picks the Toads... again... which might've been a legitimate problem in Sticker Star, but that's generally alleviated. They still rely heavily on generic Toads in the first two Paper Mario games, look at Toad Town. How are Koopas with sunglasses any different from Toad in a pirate suit also? Also, really, using Big Boo as your example of when things were better? Are they not using Big Boo any more?? Oh you mean the face? Like what a lot of people said about how "new" Boo is "sterile"?

We're also supposed to accept at face value of exactly how New Super Mario Bros. Wii is a "poster boy of the Mario mandate" when that game actually drastically altered the appearances of Iggy Koopa and made minor changes to other Koopalings, which is a change to an existing character at the time that was definitely publicized. I just assume the change is just a change the author didn't like. Galaxy 2 is then listed as an example of this apparent troubling trend and bizarrely uses being "more linear" as a trait of the trend when Odyssey turned that gameplay loop around completely. It's not like it's a dated chart or anything, since Origami King, a game they listed, came squarely after Odyssey.

Speaking of Odyssey, they don't even talk about the gameplay loop but fixate on just the realistic humans. There's no sources that they tried to circumvent the mandate; the collage person just pulled that right out of their ass. From the Odyssey Art book, what actually happened was that they experimented with different styles for the humans but decided on realistic humans to help the jarring feel propped against Mario. Also it's not "camelot-styled Mario humans", the concept art shown in the same spot as their complaint directly contradicts this as you see even stubbier humans with dotted eyes looking more like a Link's Awakening remake feel. Look I think it's a shame we didn't get the kid in the Bowser outfit or Miss Grape or the mustached guy in the top hat, but it wasn't a concept that ran afoul of a mandate but that the developers simply liked the realistic humans more to make them super eye-catching for the trailer as well as surprise players who play the game blind. Nintendo simply intended a reaction out of players; the realistic humans garnered the strongest ones. How were the "Camelot-based humans" even violating the mandate? They're entirely original characters, and they're not modifications of existing characters. How much are you willing to stretch your idea of their idea of "modifications of existing characters" when we got Helen Gravelly? You're overthinking this.

I have no idea if this thing is even shared frequently online. It might just be GameFAQs only gripe in the depths of Mario fandom, but this entire collage pissed me off so much and its unwarranted mean-spirited attacks on people for simply making games you don't like because they simple excluding specific arbitrary certain design elements which aren't even coherent to support your position, I had to comment on it. I'm not saying to continue relying on Toads as a crutch for scattering extremely similar assets, like it's okay to want Toads in different costumes, it's okay to want more variety in enemy species and give them some cute recolors and such and it's okay to want more original characters even if they don't exactly fit Mario's style (like in Super Paper Mario); it's okay to not like various Mario games after 2007 due to various reasons like content cuts, unsatisfactory gameplay loops, and roster cuts, as well as maybe recent Paper Mario and Mario Party games lacking new characters and hosts, but making these sweeping general pronouncements about the whole state of the series from Mario Tennis to Mario platformers to Mario RPGs to Mario Party with such flimsy self-contradicting examples that amount to confirmation bias, arbitrary defined "eras", and reasoning that are easily disputed is not okay and you look like just a bitter person who just has nostalgia for older games to me, especially not with calling Miyamoto "senile", people as "r-word", and Tsuyoshi Watanabe "asshole".
 
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I have a hard time believing the casual gamer is so dumb they can't distinguish a normal Dry Bones from a Dry Bones with a darker hue and a spike.

If they want to unify a species, make it through a singular character a la Toad or Yoshi. If they really want to establish a template of sorts and drive a point home, make "clones" and grant them super minor NPC roles. Don't deprive all members of that species of individual characteristics, because the game's presentation risks becoming boring fast. ToK fortunately alleviates this somewhat, but even then the characters are more like clones at a costume party than individuals proper.
Also IMO that's a mischaracterization to say that "Nintendo is doing this only because people won't recognize Dry Bones otherwise". I'm sure most people will even if Nintendo gave a Dry Bones character googly eyes and removed its teeth. But what Nintendo is aiming for is a sense of unity for characters. It's on a spectrum. You can not have a unified design at the expense of cohesion or you can be entirely uniform and have zero individuality. What's clear to me is that Nintendo years ago didn't have much solid footing on what these individual characters and obstacles and items should look like so there's a bit of a waver. At some point in the mid 2000s (IMO), something snapped together and then Nintendo had some really strong designs and told developers to stick with them. It's not easy designing either, given how much effort and misery was undertaken to try to make ? Blocks look correct in Super Mario Odyssey... that's just ? BLOCK. Guess what, they ultimately decided to go with the classic standard look that had maybe one deviation in New Donk City, because that look is probably REALLY strong.

TOK does have a bad ratio of Toads looking the same, but Paper Mario IMO is given too much credit for differentiation. It amounts to just hair style and color. It's not that much of a step above TOK's Toads; it's only ratio. Paper Mario 1 and 2 DO use a lot of "generic" Toads the populate the town, and I mean a lot that if you remastered a screenshot of Toad Town from Paper Mario 64 and removed Paper Mario 64 from collective memory, people would probably complain about how the Toads don't have hair.
 
Someone remade the above collage into a much less abrasive/4channy infographic while reassessing certain points in it (such as - somewhat - rebutting the notion that Miyamoto is the "evil corporate senile overlord" that the internet makes him to be) and making it a tad more insightful. It's still got its fair share of speculation, though, and some information may be false (I recall Tanabe first acting as a producer for the PM series with Super Maper Pario, not TTYD). It also still seems to toss around the same broad strokes that have been criticised for being too insubstantial (somewhat arbitrarily dividing Mario's history into "eras"). What do you think of it?

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admittedly i do kind of feel "oh well :{" when i look at spinoffs nowadays and then compare them with little stuff in the gcn/wii era like how piantas used to be heckinf everywhere, and dk characters other than dk and diddy occacionally were included in rosters, and the audience members were a little more varied than just toads and generic mario enemies, and other stuff like that. it feels like theres less charm nowadays ... im not gonna blame anything on The Mandates or specific people or wahtever, im not qualified at all to know why things are the way they are, but its a little upsetting to see i guess?
i DO find it kind of. weird when people focus on The Mandates excessively though
i cant pinpoint why i feel the way i do about both of these things
 
I felt that the mandates thing is only an issue when the same restrictions are not only absent in the early days, but also lasted for a long time. Take Sonic, for example: for a long time, there were so many things done with the universe even in his early years, and some of the efforts turned out to be so memorable that to this day, there are fans of what will never happen again. I am taking about the SatAM cartoon, which has a decidedly different take from the games, and because its elements carried over to the comics that lasted for a long time, it kind of build up from there. For the comics in particular, when a new continuity happened, some fans took issue that their favourites from SatAM won't be making it. So basically, it's not only Mario, but also Sonic that has the fan contention for what could be done with the IP.

In a way, it's like a Pandora's Box, where if something that is inappropriate for the brand got away with being released, it creates a kind of expectation that it's OK to have it. So for example, there's a Mario football game with over-the-top characterisation and violence, and that's very loved, but it's also something that will never happen again. Some unusual stuff were lucky, like Luigi's Mansion despite that game having little in common with the Mario games. There are a few things that I would've loved to see, like Mario flexing his vocal abilities because Mario talking is a joy to read or listen to (Fortune Street has a lot of Mario lines, and that's wonderful), but at the same time, I know that there are some people who do not take well that Mario talks a lot.

I feel that an aspect with the brand guidelines that is very misunderstood is how it practically safeguards from something unsavoury. One of the common fan interpretations of Mario is to depict him as an immoral person who commits sins at every opportunity (e.g. SuperMarioGlitchy4), which some might see as funny but I detest this because to put it this way: just because a character is defined by positive attributes, does not make them ripe for being uncharacteristically negative. My go-to hypothetical case is: this type of guidelines prevent Kirby from showing teeth, because who wants to see Kirby with teeth? The guidelines are like a fortress that guards against uncharacteristic interpretations, and in this way, it benefits not only the creators, but also the fans.

Thank you for reading.
 
I firmly believe that there is very little to lose in taking the N64-GCN era's approach to characters. I want to see the Mario world fleshed out, into a society flowing with life, and I feel like for the most part this was more commonly possible in the 2000s. There's no reason to ban portrayals of age & gender in Toad NPCs, I'm convinced this policy is also responsible for Toadsworth not having any brand new roles since Dream Team.

I understand this isn't an issue for the general masses, but my response to that is: how many of them would be actively turned off if that extra creative spark was used? Mario games' sales have generally been impacted by the success of the system they're on. The GameCube wasn't a very successful system in general, so of course games on it would sell less than ones on the Wii. Super Paper Mario was probably the most boundary-pushing game in terms of the Mario brand, and it's still the best selling Paper Mario game. It being incredibly unique in terms of character design certainly didn't hurt the sales of that game. It was going to sell well by PM standards just by being on the Wii.

I don't think the characters being kept as familiar as possible is as big of a defining trait to having good sales as some people seem to think. Most general masses aren't analyzing each character to make sure they know them all, they're buying the game because it has Mario. New Super Mario Bros Wii sold well because it was classic 2D platforming Mario with a brand new multiplayer feature. I doubt it would have suddenly become a niche game if it had characters like Toadsworth, or more imaginative settings, in it.

So my stance is that the overly strict rules on how Toads can look, which spinoffs can design their own characters to touch on the Mario world, etcetera, are only alienating longtime fans while not really having a huge impact on the casual sales, if they were gonna buy a Mario game they're going to buy it whether the Toads have mustaches or not. The number of people who will actively pass on a game because there are too many new or unique character designs is likely a lot smaller than people think. Most of them won't care. Meanwhile a good number of the dedicated fans do care. With that in mind I think the change that I and other fans are calling for would do more good than harm.
 

I find this chart much more fitting than the other one. I mainly want to focus on the "Dark" Era and Pushback.

I appreciate that this revision doesn't paint the "Dark" Era games like trash like the other one did. Edgy does not equal bad! I find Rosalina's backstory to be very touching, Strikers is purposefully outrageous and that just adds to its charm, and SPM is just SPM, you either love it or hate it lmao. I do find it weird how the Wario spinoffs are completely removed, maybe they do not apply to the mandate, as all the WarioWare games kept their quirkiness (minus Game and Wario), but I would still like to see them mentioned. Another thing I would've added to the "Dark" Era is how it was the year of Luigi before it happened. Luigi was getting a shit ton of development during the early 2000s as Nintendo was no longer really rivalling with SEGA and they had more room to experiment. It's one of my main reasons why I love the 2000s Nintendo so much, Luigi got the love he deserved. It would also provide an explanation on Mr. L, instead of how the chart makes it seem like Mr. L is a completely random addition to the game.

Now to the Pushback, first off, where is Mario + Rabbids? It's one of the best to mention to Nintendo's more relaxed mandates, as Ubisoft were able to create Mario character variations, which I believe was a very big nono in the mandate. Another thing is to mention that NSMBUDX and Super Mario Party were released after Odyssey, Odyssey was the big Mario game, the console seller (besides MK8DX). Nintendo didn't really have to focus on them as much. I would've also liked to see Mario Tennis Aces and Mario & Sonic 2020 shown as another mandate pusher, with all characters getting alt outfits, a very new thing for the Switch era. Mario Tennis Aces actually went back and did the whole Mr. L thing again as well, showing that characters can be modified. I genuinely don't know what to think for PM: TOK, other than I don't think Paper Mario will ever recover, I think that series had one of the biggest hands in the more strict mandate so Nintendo may not want the series to branch out anymore.

I don't think Nintendo was ever outright wrong for their mandate decisions. They probably saw Mario was heading down the path Sonic took, and didn't want to chance it. The issue is how long and how strict it lasted, leading to the death of spinoffs that weren't able to mold to the mandate. I think the mandate is actually what led to Alphadream's bankruptcy, they kept making remakes as they weren't able to make anything creative anymore, and they lost the fight just before the restraints were eased. But, I won't call Nintendo outright bad for this decision, they were able to keep Mario stable, but now Mario is so stable we're getting bored of it, we just want some experimentation again, and we are getting it back with the Switch.

(please tell me if i got anything wrong, this is just how i view this whole mandate thing)
 
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I spent ages watching gameplay of Paper Mario and TTYD not knowing that this was a Dry Bones, and I'm on a god damn Mario forum. I perfectly expect, and think it's reasonable, for the average person to not be able to recognise the wacky Dry Bones designs that the Mario RPGs decided they needed for whatever reason.

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Like, this is going completely off the rails! What the hell is this? You expect me to believe that this is a Dry Bones? It has none of the features of one, it's just a skeleton of a Koopa (I think). And yes, I'm expecting someone to waltz and go "haha, isn't that just what a Dry Bones is" and no, it isn't. Every character in the Mario franchise has a specific design, including Dry Bones.

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dry bones party baby (woo)
I'm not going to go into every little detail and difference here, but the most obvious issue is the head. Then general colouring issues, the one in Superstar Saga that doesn't even have a shell or stand up. Yeah I'm not expecting casual gamers to be able to recognise these if I can't.


oh and remember how they normalised all of the of the designs in the remake of Superstar Saga to keep it consistent with the rest of the series?
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well they got away with Dry Bones yet again. Is this even a Dry Bones at this point? (no it isn't, and that's factual).
Gonna be honest I think you're probably in the very small minority here of being unable to recognize an enemy's old design. But this also works on a lot of hindsight. Contrary to popular belief, the enemy designs of the original Paper Mario games actually aren't all that original to the series, but mostly come from the pre-Gamecube designs of the time. Dry Bones in particular is actually pretty close to the Super Mario World depiction:
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Similarly, the Superstar Saga design is pretty close to its original SMB3 artwork:
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I don't think many people would play through Super Mario Bros. 3 or Super Mario World and not realize that the Koopa skeletons in those games aren't Dry Bones, or be unable to recognize other enemies and characters. It wasn't until Super Princess Peach that they got their current design, so it's not like the RPGs had a specific, set-in-stone Dry Bones design to work with that was being violated here.

Honestly though, the Superstar Saga remake using the original design is pretty bizarre because it's clearly intended to go with the Troopea which was quadrupedal in the original but redesigned to look more like Koopa Troopa's current design for the remake. Not really sure how or why that slipped through.

(This part isn't really directed at SGoW's comment anymore but it's a good segue) My personal take is that I think the designs used in the original three games have a lot of charm, BUT I see the merit in having the designs be more standardized. That being said, Nintendo's gone a bit too far with this in my opinion. Okay, yeah, I like the Paper Mario Dry Bones design, but would it work that well in a game today where the current Dry Bones design has been well-established for over 15 years? Probably not. At this point it would be considered an off-model design the likes of which we haven't really seen since Sunshine. (Off the top of my head, Pokeys come to mind as another design that wouldn't work very well today either. Boo could maybe work, but that's a little more iffy.) With the way the art direction of the series has gone it baffles me that this is still Mario's design, honestly:
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No legs, dot eyes, no visible eyebrows, various exaggerated features. It works for him, gives him a bit more of a cartoony feel than usual that works for the storybook kind of aesthetic that the series at least used to be going for. It wasn't broken, so they didn't fix it. It's not a carbon copy of his regular design, but it doesn't need to be, it's still clearly recognizable as Mario.

But then you have designs like this:
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I really don't see what needed to be worked on here? They're clearly still recognizable as Goombas and Koopa Troopas. I can't even pinpoint anything off-model with Koopa Troopa, aside from the lack of visible legs - which, by the way, they didn't fix for the Sticker Star redesign either, so obviously it wasn't much of a problem!

If anything, just recolor Goomba's feet brown and call it a day. Looking more closely at Goomba, it's clearly based on the Yoshi's Island design:
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The only thing that's really off here is the bushy eyebrows... But if you're not going to redesign Mario to make him more on-model, does it really matter if Goombas don't have thin eyebrows?

I'll throw Bullet Bill in too - what was so wrong about this design that it needed to be redone?
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What's especially weird is that there were still a few enemy designs that made it through the redesigns for Sticker Star - Bob-omb, Lakitu, and Swoop are pretty much unchanged. None of them really need it, they're pretty recognizable already, but it's just odd when almost every other enemy had their design redone.

Blooper is the same too, but Blooper pretty much hasn't been redesigned ever, so that makes sense. Not much you can do with it to make it more "on brand". Seriously, look at this artwork all the way back from Yoshi for the NES:
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So tl;dr I think there's merit to having more standardized designs but there's no need to jump headfirst into the deep end of the pool in cases that don't really need them, especially when they've shown a willingness to let things slide from time to time.

I understand this isn't an issue for the general masses, but my response to that is: how many of them would be actively turned off if that extra creative spark was used?
Yeah I think this is really the key here, realistically most people playing Mario games aren't going to care if you do it or not, so really there's no reason not to. Although, I guess you could argue from a business standpoint, it's less work for the character designers?
 
I'm of the opinion that people care way too much about characters you'll only see for about 5-10 seconds at most.

In regards to that crappy guide, even the revised version is still full of errors. Like both state that the rosalina storybook was snuck past Miyamoto.

This is not true, they presented it to him and he okayed it.
 
Someone remade the above collage into a much less abrasive/4channy infographic while reassessing certain points in it (such as - somewhat - rebutting the notion that Miyamoto is the "evil corporate senile overlord" that the internet makes him to be) and making it a tad more insightful. It's still got its fair share of speculation, though, and some information may be false (I recall Tanabe first acting as a producer for the PM series with Super Maper Pario, not TTYD). It also still seems to toss around the same broad strokes that have been criticised for being too insubstantial (somewhat arbitrarily dividing Mario's history into "eras"). What do you think of it?

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From a quick glance, I also find the infographic falling into the same bulls**t, but with more dramatization. Same basic problem with the first one, but I'll give credit that some of the criticisms here I find more understandable, and it's less hit-piecey than the first one. I haven't seen use of the r-word either.

2017's era is just as ludicrous. There's no "pushback" or "civil war". I have no idea if they're intentionally over-dramaticizing for rhetorical effect or they legitimately think the series is crumbling within or whatever, or I'm sure Nintendo got complaints from fans, but it's not like these particular fans have any real clout in how these games are ultimately made, as the playerbase making the complaints are a very vocal minority. It's shown time and time again that most players actually don't care too much about how much original characters you stuff in a game or not. There's also use of a chad vs virgin meme, which is on the same level of argumentation as puerile wojak memes in that, don't use them, you come off as a person with not much argumentation to provide and only preaching to a choir and I dislike that meme quite strongly. It has little point to be here, and it detracts from points being made.

There aren't "defiance" against the mandates. There's nowhere the mandates said you can't create original characters. You simply have to create very wild new spins on original characters like Fuzzler or Tropical Wiggler (where's 3D World which had a bevy of new Mario enemies and bosses as well as Sprixie Princess? Did this "civil war" start earlier?) I'm not sure why Super Mario Party is listed alongside Origami King as a "virgin" either, maybe for a lack of original characters, except this has been going on since Mario Party DS, which is a game so far back it's in this arbitrary "dark era" , which they STILL included Mario Party 8 just for having MC Ballyhoo even though two games back they had... Brighton and Twila????? Also did New Super Mario Bros. U not introduce any new enemies? They had Mecha Cheeps, Grrrols, Goombrats, Torpedo Bases, Waddlewings, Flipruses, Dragoneels, some which appear to be alterations of existing enemies, but they're from a game the collage author doesn't like, so I guess they don't count. This is focusing on the world perspective; I'd agree the New Super Mario Bros. brand at the point got pretty stale, but I'd chalk it up mostly to the bland graphical style and level design not what actors they decided to use. If that game was exactly the same but sprite based or had the 2D vector aesthetic I think more people would forgive it and actually enjoy the game for having the fantastic gameplay people largely overlook.

I'm also scoffing at the terminology, "Corporate" era. No, Nintendo has always been a giant corporation focused on control and extracting money from you, always has been for decades. The "soul era" saw Mario Party having annual releases, where the games differ only a little ultimately (in spite of the orb system that I really liked, but it's just very improved items from Mario Party 3), where that console generation saw four Mario Parties, while nowadays console generations Wii, Wii U, and Switch saw two Mario Parties. AGAIN they're using the Mario Party Star Rush box cover incorrectly where it unintentionally adds to their argument about "sterilization" even though that's the absolute wrong box art while the new box is actually quite colorful and lively. Coincidentally, this "corporate" era happens to cover the Wii U's lifespan which is a generation Nintendo legitimately struggled in, as well as a rocky 3DS start, so I think the quality of the games do reflect on this. I have no idea why Puzzle and Dragons is listed here besides the "no new original characters", it's even cut and dry that it's a "Super Mario Bros." edition with the New Super Mario Bros. styling but it's like a budget title with a fun spin on a formula. Mario Party Star Rush is still a baffling choice here as it's a very new take on Mario Party, experimental, a few flaws here and there, but it's not *terrible* is it? The "corporate air" moniker has little value to me, it's a meaningless buzzword. It's ludicrous that I see "stories are all but banned" when Color Splash had a complete story arc. The story's nothing to write home about (Mario games never have been), but it's there and players reported some parts of Color Splash's story leaving an impact. I don't have to reiterate about Koopalings, do I? Do they want Iggy Koopa to look the same for decades or not??? Do they want Lemmy's old look or new look? Is that not "staleness" they decry about?

I really hate how they illustrate their points with the renders between Kia Soul and Caparo T1 eras to try to seem like Mario and Luigi certainly got "stiff" and "sterile", it's cherry-picked renders of Mario and Luigi just standing there, when it's obvious to me they're intended as like a "mugshot", a sort of profile photo, and they tried to juxtapose it with more dynamic posed 2D art of Mario and Luigi that predates their Kia Soul era. I could easily replace those images of Mario and Luigi with a render of the same poses and it'll look nonsensical.

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Or I could replace them just standing there with a modern 2D image of them more dynamically posed, just doing a high-five, and then twist myself into pretzels explaining exactly why this modern art lost "charm" and "character" compared to the original hat-tipping art

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I can even attempt a reverse here.

I could cherrypick stiff, neutral, awkward art of Mario and Luigi from the GCN era and then use modern artwork with expression and then claim how much better it is now, with much better posing and expressions.

Look at this soulless soul-eating stare Mario has with his wrinkled sausage arms and sausage legs. Man look at how corporate Nintendo was in 2007 with their ugly ass renders with Mario's gray shadows and lifeless skin tones and bland shaders.
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WOW look at that return to form! Look how that bloody new sparkly outfits Mario's in when Nintendo never put him in anything else other than overalls in those bajillion sports games! Souls retrieved!!!

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Look at how amazing this art is, with Mario being a smug douche, all these cute little setpieces, and Luigi is aghast!!! Corporate Nintendo in 2006 would never have scenes like this.
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I could go on and on, but you know that's utter bullshit, so why do the same sort of thing to "modern" Mario?

Notable suspects at least doesn't tag Miyamoto as "senile". It's just criticisms of Miyamoto and Tanabe which is fair enough. That Miyamoto section is a bit baffling to me. When he said he wanted to make Mario be more "mature" by removing the V-sign there's not much to glean from the statement, but why invoke the comparison to Legend of Zelda and Metroid??? Mario's never been THAT far; the comparisons to Paw Patrol and Peppa Pig are frankly insulting to me. Mario's always been pretty close to a cartoon slapstick routine, maybe not as over-the-top, but light-heartedness didn't change that much between Power Tennis's opening cutscene (a "Dark Souls" era game) and the Mario Golf Super Rush cutscene. I do agree that benefit of the doubt should be given, especially after he greenlit Mario + Rabbids when that concept was so wild despite lacking original Mario casting (unless you think Beep-0 is one). I can accept the criticism that Tanabe and his team are too experimental and lack focus, maybe you can say Color Splash lacked confidence in its new battle format especially after the notable criticism Sticker Star received compared to the previous three games. Maybe Origami King was too experimental as well, with polarizing criticism over its battle system which some might say is engaging, others say it's gimmicky. It's fair here.

Tsuyoshi Watanabe's involvement, as I said earlier, is just speculation, it's not worthwhile. At least there's some acknowledgement that design decisions are frequently committee. Not sure how much Japan "honor" plays into here, honestly, since chances are good this wasn't compiled by someone familiar with Japanese workplace culture (and Westeners seem to really overemphasize East Asian's perception of importance of "honor" and deferring to elders from my experience) and not sure how much control he exerts here. It's all speculation but at least it's not pointing fingers at people who, I reiterate, made decisions regarding if Sloopy McDoodleface is a new Mario character or just confined to some giant art book.

"So, what happened" has a few screencaps that conveys very limited information. I'm always skeptical of Twitter dot com screencaps as links as, given the limited nature of tweet, almost always leaves out important context or details in favor of a punchy, easy-to-share soundbite. Even taking the "former insider" screencap at face value, there's still not enough information to form any conclusions. What is "were getting too liberal with their interpretations of the Mario IP", this is incredibly vague. "Now they watch over everything and establish standards" is extremely vague, and you can speculate, but this doesn't belong as any solid evidence of your claims. I'm highly skeptical of these screencaps regardless.

In the middle of the section, I noted a bit of condescension and elitism regarding "catering to casual gamers and leaving out 'core' gamers" as well as remark that the game was catered to children while Mario is getting milked (remember the earlier absurd comparison to Peppa Pig and Paw Patrol?). Give me a break. What exactly about these games are "dumbed" down? New Super Mario Bros. Wii's success is attributed to solid gameplay that both adults and kids enjoy, but it's also the first big major game in the series to feature all four players in a platformer when Nintendo tried and failed for YEARS to try to implement this. It's utterly chaotic and it has a universal appeal, and it's on a highly successful platform to boot. The game's popular with both "casuals" and "core" (how I despise these terms) for being a good mix of accessibility (which the games would further improve on) and still fun to play for experienced players or players that don't need assistance for gaming, which is a hallmark feature of the most successful Mario platformers. Anyhow, ALL these Mario games announcement were "events", they generated decent buzz especially 3D Land's novelty (that wore off pretty quickly). 3D World is a highly controversial game, sure: people heavily disagreed if the game was great or very great.

And so the section ends with "this tarnished Miyamoto's reputation". No, it did not. Fans overreacted and started speculation on why they didn't like the games as much as the games they used to enjoy younger. What happened to Miyamoto? He's still highly regarded in the industry. He's probably responsible for some mistakes, such as whatever direction Star Fox Zero went. Some of those mistakes happened in a series. But these Mario games don't come anywhere near the disasters I've seen in other parts of the game industry that threw down entire studios. The biggest issue with fans like whoever made the infographic is that their scope is sooo limited. If you broaden your horizons and followed other games in the industry, this is not big deal. There's no Mario equivalent to Anthem, Cyberpunk, GTA Trilogy Remastered, Destiny 2, Call of Duty Vanguard, Madden 22, Marvel's Avengers (how do you manage to screw up an Avengers game??), Warcraft Reforged, Battlefield 2042; games like these, in a repeated manner, would downright tarnish Nintendo's reputation in my eyes. Hell, Pokemon's in a way worse spot compared to the Mario games, but the games themselves still appear to be acceptable. You haven't seen the bigger monsters that have surfaced in the games industry, whereas these Mario games are, at bottom-worst, flawed and disappointing experiences but there's still enjoyment to be had here and there.

Also "forcing gimmicks" part is bizarre because it directly contradicts with, what I thought, the thesis that Nintendo is playing too safe with their IP. 3D World might be seen as a "gimmick" but how in the world is New Super Mario Bros. 2 or Super Mario Galaxy 2 "gimmicks"?? A good deal of Mario games rely on "gimmicks. The beloved Dark Souls era had FLUDD which was controversial at the time (now having benefit of rosy introspection imo), Power Tennis relied on power shots and gimmick courts that were also criticized as gimmicks by a few reviewers but Power Tennis even at the time was criticized for stagnation. Thousand-Year Door had an audience that's not widely accepted, and relies quite a bit on RNG with the stage props. And there's Mario Party 7, with its microphone thing that is most absolutely a gimmick, but you even see the beloved Super Mario Advance 4 also having level cards for an e-reader or something that's sold separately, of course, with an advertisement for four players for some arcadey sidemode that's also prevalent in other advance games and Mario & Luigi: Superstar Saga. Dude, remember the separately sold link cable rather than the wireless play today?????

That bottom right corner zone is really confusing too, with zero context into consideration. There's no thought or consideration regarding the sales numbers, though these seem to be worldwide sales. I'm really confused to what point they're going here as they're showing me apparently higher sales numbers there, and then lower sales number afterward with what looks like Miyamoto having second thoughts about games constraints about mandates? I had to write so long and cut a lot of words because there's a weird contradiction this gives off compared to the "is there any hope section" that does praise Odyssey and Luigi's Mansion 3 for their sales.

What's really confusing to me is the sales numbers. For New Super Mario Bros. U Deluxe, this number is inaccurate: the sales from March 2021 is 10.44 million, so it's way off. This is a weird disrespecancy, which I think is attributed to the misleading dates that don't align with the sales numbers. Where are they getting the 5.85 million from? Also, New Super Mario Bros. Wii did not break 30.32 million in 2009, but 10.55 million. I'm not really into the sales aspect of things, but don't give me numbers that are misleading and confusing me AND I can't even look up where you got your sources because there's zero sourcing. There's likely multiple factors to why New Super Mario Bros. U Deluxe didn't do as well, which I more likely attribute it to split console platforms, the Wii U's failure, and probably an attempt to emulate New Super Mario Bros. Wii too closely, though "mandate" is really low on my list of explanations.

The worst part about this is they neglected Origami King's sales and Super Mario Party's sales. I'm not even sure if they're attributing Origami's very strong sales, faster seller for a Mario game, to "Miyamoto's loosened grip" or not. Regardless, that game is still viewed as a "mandrake" game, whatever that means, thanks to the stupid "chad" meme, lumping it with Super Mario Party, who ALSO got very strong sales rivaling Mario Party 6 and was apparently left out of the confusing sales numbers on the aforementioned section.

I'm still giving this chart a Soul/10. It's just a poor infographic, just a glorified meme, that's preaching to a choir that grew up on games that don't like anything new any more (or that's the vibes) and used to score easy points, relying on a ton of cherry-picking, while maybe scattering some good points here and there, still misses out context or mischaracterize games they don't like via misusing images and such, selectively omitting good parts of the games they don't like (again, Color Splash being grouped as a game from an "era" where "stories are banned", when I feel they just didn't like which actors are being used). I feel people that grew up on N64 had bemoaned how Nintendo veered so far off from its roots in the GCN era, when the Dark Souls era offered precisely zero new 2D Marios on console (imagine the Switch or Wii not having any 2D Mario games) but did offer plenty of Mario sports and Mario Parties, which I personally highly enjoyed most of them and wish we could get more Mario sports, which I'm very sure people then criticized. I understand the desire to at least populate the world a little more than just "Toad here and Toad there", as I reiterate, but this graph is ultimately a retread of the same graph I picked apart. It doesn't piss me off as much as the first one, but it still has too many problems. That my fears that this was shared a lot online seem confirmed because it did get a revision or something, maybe another person decided to make their own rather than update it to reflect consensus.
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I'll post my thoughts earlier on the mandrake itself, and I'll probably respond to some people here, on my agreements, disagreements, challenges, etc but I'm not going to be as harsh as I am on the graph here, as none of you bother me as much as these things do.

Anyway I'm burnt from the literal hours I spent writing this thought dump. I'm not even done. Anyway here's sterilized Mario art, look at its utterly tepid charmless glory. Must be the most utter f*cking soul-sucking thing in the world looking at them since it doesn't have a pink Magikoopa with a top hat with a sock on their nose who was raised by wolves (who died to a volcanic eruption and an F5 tornado at the same time) since their parents died to UFO invasion before they were born and now they want to commit Chain Chomp puppy genocide but a prophecy said otherwise.

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2017's era is just as ludicrous. There's no "pushback" or "civil war".

i had just woken up when i made my response to the newer chart and yeah i just realized that that is so stupid

please take my response i made with a lot of salt, i was half alseep and seeing the chart just really made me want to make a semi good response lmao
 
Quick comment on the second chart cause I don't currently feel like going on a long-ass rant about why the mandate theories are stupid as hell, but one comment in particular I am really baffled about is that Tanabe is a likely cause of "Paper Mario reinventing itself instead of sticking with a consistent formula" and apparently that's a... bad thing? Do you guys just want to see the series stagnate rather than grow? Origami King has reached a point where we come closer and closer to getting rid of turn-based battles and embrace a new genre altogether brimming with personality, and apparently to others that's a bad thing. Of course I'm not gonna judge you if you prefer the old formula or anything but it just feels weird to me that this sort of innovation is thought of as "wrong" and a bad direction when the people claiming this are the ones who desperately want originality for the sake of originality. I don't mean to generalize but based on most interactions I've had/witnessed, it seems to me that this is how the majority is, but for all I know it could still just be a very vocal minority among paper mario fans.
 
Someone remade the above collage into a much less abrasive/4channy infographic while reassessing certain points in it (such as - somewhat - rebutting the notion that Miyamoto is the "evil corporate senile overlord" that the internet makes him to be) and making it a tad more insightful. It's still got its fair share of speculation, though, and some information may be false (I recall Tanabe first acting as a producer for the PM series with Super Maper Pario, not TTYD). It also still seems to toss around the same broad strokes that have been criticised for being too insubstantial (somewhat arbitrarily dividing Mario's history into "eras"). What do you think of it?

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I know seriously trying to debunk a 4Chan infographics is like getting mad at the discography of Anal ****. By engaging with it seriously, I already lost, and They won. But considering how you framed it...

-As LGM touches above, the whole part about sales is complete nonsense. Whoever made that is comparing the entire lifetime sales of older games with partial sales data for newer ones.

-Re the what happened: I see that neogaf post bandied around as some insider whisteblower that proves there are sinister forces at work, and it's so frustrating, because, like, it's not! Not at all! Let me explain.

The person who made that NeoGaf post that Resetera guy is quoted was one "Aquamarine". Aquamarine was an executive employee of the NPD Group, a market research firm collecting data for (among other) things video game sales in the US. She would frequently risk her job to leak sales figures for the goal of impressing message board dwellers. Which is pretty fucking sad, but I disgress!

But Aquamarine being an insider source for one thing (US video game sales data), doesn't make her an insider for Nintendo's corporate politics. In that post, she doesn't demonstrate any oustanding knowledge, or indeed, anything one wouldn't already be aware by looking at Mario game credits. The claim this stuff only started in 2009 is plainly false: looking at the credits for N64 and Gamecube spin-off games will reveal plenty of "Supervised by", "Illustration support", "Coordination" and so on credits. They've had "IP watchdogs" for 3 decades now.

The one big change that happened is that Nintendo underwent a big restructure in 2003. One of the many results of that was creating the Nintendo SPD group, which had multiple teams devoted to supervising 3rd party developers and western-developed games so that bigwigs like Miyamoto and Tezuka wouldn't have to sign off every Mario spinoff like they did during the N64 years.

----

Some other thoughts:

I don't really have a dog in this fight. I don,t scream when I see NSMB-style hills, but I also haven't bought or played any of the nu-Paper Mario games because they look boring, bad and have nothing I enjoyed about TTYD. But I'm inclined to reflexively roll my eyes whenever "The Mario Mandates(TM)" are brought up in those words because, how do I put it.

Some people really come accross as the "Thanks Obama" meme. Every creative decision I don't like is evidence the Mario IP team is personally out to fuck my shit up, no matter how tenuous it is. Let me give an example, from a Reddit post about WarioWare Get It Together:

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I'm not screencapping this just to put some random guy on Reddit on blast (though making fun of Redditors is pretty damn fun) but it's such a perfect illustration of what I'm talking about. This guy, for whatever reason, convinced himself that Waluigi, a character who's never been in WarioWare(beside one Amiibo extra in WW Gold) even during the supposed "golden years" of creativity in Mario games, never been mentioned in WarioWare, that is not remotely foreshadowed to appear in WarioWare Get It Together (unless you count any build up to a character reveal as evidence Waluig is supposed to appear in something, as the above gentlemen evidently does), was going to appear in WarioWare, and the fact that he isn't in it is evidence the game was meddled with for unspecific but presumably sinister reasons. It beggars belief.

There's more examples of that. Like a guy making a hammy statement among the lines of "It's so funny how Nintendo is so determined to destroy any creativity in Mario games, because Mario Party Superstars replaced a generic Shy Guy in one minigame with Toad, so that you'd drive Toad to Toadette instead of driving a generic Shy Guy to a generic Shy Guy. Or a guy seriously claiming Sticker Star & all are "anti-consumers". That's not what that term means!

I also feel one of the thing that really muddles up the waters re spin-off aesthetics and roster is just how much HD development has changed things. It takes a lot more people to develop video games that meet customer expectations of "good graphics". It takes a lot more time to make them. It's much more expensive to make them. I've seen people get really mad Mario Party Superstars replaces the ugly Toads in the option menus with more standardized characters but...

There's really no pratical reason for mario party superstars to create new fucked-up HD toads you'll only see for a few seconds in a menu instead of just reusing perfectly serviceable models. The 0.00000000001% of prospective Mario Party Superstars buyers who feel so strongly about those non-characters will buy it anyway. So why make the expense?
 
I know seriously trying to debunk a 4Chan infographics is like getting mad at the discography of Anal ****. By engaging with it seriously, I already lost, and They won. But considering how you framed it...
Yeah I was told by you the post was made in absolute bad faith but some people here I don't think are in bad faith, that seem sincere, seem to agree with the infographics at least in part. I'm not sure if everyone can detect signs of intellectual dishonesty (hell I don't think everyone on the forum knows what "intellectual dishonesty" means; it's such an abstract concept that I used to struggle with), and people have responded that they've seen the infographic thing before and probably may not be aware of the 4chan origins (I overlooked /v/ and my sister shared this thing to me probably because she had to argue with posters who argue in bad faith; I avoid GameFAQs nowadays due to having a bunch of kids that argue in bad faith all the time). People might see some grains of truth; I remember a comment right on this forum on Mario's New Super Mario Bros. Wii front-facing orthographic render (featured in the picture thing) as "stiff" and "sanitized" that was used to support this trend of "brand sterilization" after all, even though I disagreed there and remarked that "it still looks friendly and inviting" but now I must add the render is akin to a mugshot lineup. I personally like it myself just because it's an elegant profile, still has personality to me, and highlight's Mario's strong character design.

I don't know how prevalent the antipathy is toward these developers on a wider scale, I don't have a good picture, but I do hope at least the Paper Mario fans that do want original characters that look cute and want like Count Bleck to return and such aren't mislead by these infographics that are aimed at them, with intent to turn their disappointment into outrage either, I just want to find common ground with other Mario fans in spite of our strong disagreements on how to approach story. My criticisms toward people like this is to probably try a bigger array of games rather than Nintendo stuff, though I understand people's attachments to Mario characters (it's hard for me, I enjoyed Left 4 Dead 2 but with Mario mods as a bridge, though I looove the survivors how they are too very much). But they certainly most like some forms of nonMario media, they're not totally confined to Mario stuff. Certainly, they can like more of it, explore what's out there.

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I'm not screencapping this just to put some random guy on Reddit on blast (though making fun of Redditors is pretty damn fun) but it's such a perfect illustration of what I'm talking about. This guy, for whatever reason, convinced himself that Waluigi, a character who's never been in WarioWare(beside one Amiibo extra in WW Gold) even during the supposed "golden years" of creativity in Mario games, never been mentioned in WarioWare, that is not remotely foreshadowed to appear in WarioWare Get It Together (unless you count any build up to a character reveal as evidence Waluig is supposed to appear in something, as the above gentlemen evidently does), was going to appear in WarioWare, and the fact that he isn't in it is evidence the game was meddled with for unspecific but presumably sinister reasons. It beggars belief.

There's more examples of that. Like a guy making a hammy statement among the lines of "It's so funny how Nintendo is so determined to destroy any creativity in Mario games, because Mario Party Superstars replaced a generic Shy Guy in one minigame with Toad, so that you'd drive Toad to Toadette instead of driving a generic Shy Guy to a generic Shy Guy. Or a guy seriously claiming Sticker Star & all are "anti-consumers". That's not what that term means!

I also feel one of the thing that really muddles up the waters re spin-off aesthetics and roster is just how much HD development has changed things. It takes a lot more people to develop video games that meet customer expectations of "good graphics". It takes a lot more time to make them. It's much more expensive to make them. I've seen people get really mad Mario Party Superstars replaces the ugly Toads in the option menus with more standardized characters but...

There's really no pratical reason for mario party superstars to create new fucked-up HD toads you'll only see for a few seconds in a menu instead of just reusing perfectly serviceable models. The 0.00000000001% of prospective Mario Party Superstars buyers who feel so strongly about those non-characters will buy it anyway. So why make the expense?
Yeah the redditor set themselves up for disappointment, but this mentality of setting up for disappointment has been common throughout the Mario fanbase, as I still recall expending a lot of verbiage against FTG about this. What I suggest for people like this Redditor is to evaluate psychological biases and be aware of normal pattern-seeking behavior in humans. Redditor was suffering from confirmation bias. If you want to avoid future misery from disappointment, identify these biases that occupy you and make sure to seek out information that contradicts your narratives, which is far more important information than those that confirm your beliefs.

I'm speaking as a fan of the original Toad looks but I wasn't expecting them to come back. They harken back to an older era of Mario where things were interpreted a little more loosely. Remember the voice actors for Luigi and Wario back then? Remember the weird dialogue Mario got in the Super Mario 64 instruction booklet? Remember when character renders looked soo drastically different in the same game? Remember Toad's disturbing legs as a render? Oh remember the blue Mario referee? (I mean that isn't exactly an expensive resource but I don't think he's gonna come back in some remastered Mario Tennis game. Yeah, I'm pretty sure redesigning those weird Toads and modeling them and then animating them would take up too much time for no payoff. It's nothing to get mad about if they're not back.

I just remember when people thought, from one minigame about driving Toadette to Toad, Nintendo's thing was extending to omit the generic enemies as friendly. Talk about jumping the gun, eh?

JumptheGunNight.png

(wouldn't a night variation of these minigames be cool?)

Also that's ludicrous to go far to claim Sticker Star is "anti-consumer". I don't know what definition they used, but Sticker Star doesn't exploit people for money the way Mario Kart Tour and MTX DO. Sticker Star isn't broken, has substantial hours for asking price. What you got was a game developers thought you'd like and be entertained, but you weren't.
 
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One person here? Or on the Discord? Someone that's got an account the boards, used the ? Blocks as a example and I loved it because it just sorta encapsulates my thoughts
That might've been me, as I've typed up more thought vomit regarding the mandrake and stuff and I used ? Block as an example. Even I'm now surprised at the sheer verbiage I've written about this one subject in the distant past (read: one month ago).

I can't pinpoint exactly the reasoning but I can think of contributions that lead to that decision. Miyamoto and Tanabe are scapegoats, a concrete face for something to blame when it comes to mediocre gameplay. But all decisions are by committee, not by two guys. What I'm speculating the reasoning for the developers' inability to alter existing characters too drastically is that designs are standardized now and this "mandate" is to reinforce these standards and help people recognize them. Sure, it's not like people will mistake a red-orange elongated Mushroom for a Banana, but when it comes to cementing images in customer's heads (which can help them identify the products), they probably want to stick to this standard. Before the mid 2000s, designs changed around a lot as Nintendo tried to get a footing on the strongest designs for their characters, props, and environments.

People like to focus on enemies and characters, but the standardization is series-wide. Look at something like the Super Mushroom. There was a lot of variation for this item from its first iteration in Super Mario Bros. Proportions were played with. Faces changed from game to game. Colors were all over the place. Spots on the Mushrooms also varied a lot. And then New Super Mario Bros. came around and then that's when Nintendo finally decided this is the strongest iterationm the one with the skin tone face, rounded base, and three big white spots.

Something seemingly minor and inconsequential as the ? Block? Again, that actually had a lot of minor variations, something even Mario & Luigi Superstar Saga remarked on. The first one looked rather metallic, the others had rounded edges and no paneling details. The shape of the question mark also varies. Then New Super Mario Bros. came along and took a little bit of everything: the paneling, the shape of the ? from Super Mario Bros. 3. But key here: they still had the ? scrolling, which Super Mario Galaxy finally made stationary. This is finally when the development team was like, "this is it, we finally got a good ? block" and then the development teams after this could focus on other ideas rather than designing yet another ? block.

The developers for Super Mario Odyssey DID spend a lot of time on how the ? Block ought to look. There were A LOT of sketches made for it; treasure chest-shaped ones, jerry cans, "like BioShock" (yeah I'm not making this up), one even looked like a CRT monitor. But they ultimately stuck with the original for being more easily used in the worlds. It's such a strong design, I can't blame them. Sho Murate from The Art of Super Mario Odyssey did say that "the designer in charge of the ? Block suffered through lots of fine-tuning, but I believe the results speak for themselves". Maybe the versatility is the point here and the versatility works.

I'd really applaud you if you read all what I said. Please let that sink in.
 
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By engaging with it seriously, I already lost, and They won.

IDK about you but personally I love reading about deconstructions even directed towards meme infographics done in bad taste (esp since some of their talking points have been parroted without a sense of irony) and esp. the rest of your post, it's very insightful and I learned quite a bit reading. I also love reading other people's detailed opinions on here, the discussion here has been pretty amazing.
 
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