Should Euthanasia Be Legal?

[Milo Thatch]

You know, forcing doctors to heed to your wishes and commit assisted suicide because of a byproduct stemming from condition that has strong evidence to be curable and treatable (unlike, say, stage 4 cancer) is also very gross and sickening. It's also a huge reason why I'm strongly against the death penalty and an often-looked aspect of it, the person who needs to perform a lethal injection, often anonymous hence why it's not very well-documented: directly causing death for another individual, even if it is a criminal, is a hugely traumatic experience, especially damning with this interview.

I get it, depression is extremely difficult to live in, and it's an extremely difficult subject to talk about because it has a huge variety of triggers and it varies from person to person, how they deal with it, and what not. But it's more than treatable, it's not a terminal illness, and I'd prefer you stop comparing it to them.

I also agree that the effectiveness of suicide help lines do require more research into them and primarily measure only instant outcomes rather than long-term but I wouldn't outright dismiss them: do it with a strong source rather than empty anecdotal data.

I think the problem here is you're looking at it as outlawing anything, when in reality it's simply not legalizing a method and making it something that doctors have to do unless it is considered absolutely necessary. I also said earlier that I am not in favor of outlawing suicide period; I just don't think it should be encouraged with an actual, legal method through the state.

(I'll clarify that I have lots of problems with the legal system in its current state and I would not support anything that encourages punishment of marginalized groups, which outlawing suicide certainly would as many of those with suicidal ideation are within minority groups. There is a very big difference between "I wouldn't legalize this one thing that would push doctors to do something traumatic to wash the government's hands of doing things that actually help people" and "I want to make suicidal people suffer by punishing them for desiring hurting themselves". My argument is the former, not the latter. I don't believe that suicidal people deserve punishment, and I want this to be understood, because some of your replies have made me feel as though you think that I do.)



How effective suicide helplines are wasn't my point, though. My point was that often times suicidal people won't go to anybody. One of the arguments made in favor of legalizing euthanasia suggested the idea that doing so would bring more people to come into the office and reconsider their decision, thus saving lives. What I was suggesting was that it sounds nice in theory, but I don't think that would work in practice. If people wanted to risk being talked out, they would go to other people. But a lot of suicidal people don't want to risk being talked out of it. So they won't, and that includes to doctors with whom they'd have to go through a lengthy process to be killed by them so the doctor is not held legally responsible.

And once again, I reiterate: if the problem is the efficacy of suicide helplines, the proposed solution to it should not be encouraging people to hurt themselves, it should be looking to alternative methods to help these people. I am not arguing that suicide helplines are helpful as they currently are. I'm mostly suggesting that if the idea for the legalization is so people will come to doctors, thus leading them into a process of being talked out of suicide, that isn't going to work out very well long term with what we know about suicidal people. If anything, you should be agreeing with this point as you're suggesting over and over that our mental health care is pretty bad, so why would it be any better if we're forcing suicidal people to go through a process to be able to do it, and doctors to enact that process?

To me, it feels like your thought process is going like this:

You recognize our mental health care is bad. You recognize suicide helplines don't help people as much as they should, and that people are having a hard time and want to die.
...so your solution is to make it so they will die, but it's government controlled.

To me, this is skipping a lot of steps and other solutions that would simply be better. Rather than addressing the root core of the problem (where the feeling of wanting to die comes from), you're suggesting simply killing the person off, because obviously there is no other way out for them. This is the line of thinking that I'm criticizing. The government already takes shortcuts in improving mental health care, and legalizing euthanasia in this way will provide them with another, because they will agree with your argument that there's nothing to be done, that they can't do anything about it, and they should just kill the people who feel this way.

Rather than demanding our government be much more rigorous and take mentally ill people more seriously and treat them like people, rather than addressing the things that actually make them this way systemically (racism, transphobia, abuse, you know the list, I could go on), legalizing this will not only do what Ray Trace said and put more burden onto doctors (who often aren't trained properly for euthanasia, by the way), but it will relieve the pressure that we're trying to place on the government to actually make things better for people in a meaningful way by allowing them that chance to say, "Well, there's nothing we can do about it." That's why I'm opposed to legalizing the euthanasia in any situation other than terminal illness.

Basically: I think we're disagreeing that there are situations in which there's nothing to be done about how bad life is. You think that there are times when the depression is simply too bad and nothing can be fixed, and I disagree with this. That's why we keep going back and forth on this. I think there are always other things that the government could be doing that they are simply not right now.

This is another thread I made a month or so back that I'm going to bump, as I was wondering about what either of your opinions are on the idea of giving doctors the choice of whether or not they want to assist the depressed person in suicide, but not force them to or force them not to, as that is what I meant to mention was less of a black-and-white topic than "it's all good" or "it's all bad".

 

[I'm the lil bro.]

This is another thread I made a month or so back that I'm going to bump, as I was wondering about what either of your opinions are on the idea of giving doctors the choice of whether or not they want to assist the depressed person in suicide, but not force them to or force them not to, as that is what I meant to mention was less of a black-and-white topic than "it's all good" or "it's all bad".

I think this is tricky because decisions when it comes to any kind of occupation don't exist within a vacuum. But even if doctors were given free absolute choice in this and nothing else could potentially influence it, my concern that it's taking advantage of people who are in bad mental states isn't erased. I'm still in favor of targeting what causes people to want to commit suicide over presenting this legal method of doing so. The thing is, those who are depressed and about to commit suicide are not making a rational decision — they should be treated as they are: sick. And I don't mean this in a derogatory "oh, they're just so sick", I mean they are mentally unwell and under a lot of stress and their decision making skills are impaired because of that.

Think of it like this: say someone broke a leg. They may get a passing thought that they want to get the entire leg sawed off in order to escape from the excruciating pain that having it at the moment is causing. But, that leg can be saved, the thought is an impulsive one, and overall the person's quality of life will be much better if there's work put into saving it rather than encouraging an impulse thought they have when the pain is particularly bad. Sure, I guess you could give them the ability to saw the leg off, but... I mean, why would you when you know that they would either a) regret the decision, or b) they have a chance at quality of life if you go ahead and save it?

A doctor would not recommend amputation as an option unless it was considered absolutely necessary, and I feel the same should be said of assisted suicide, too. And personally, I don't think having clinical depression is a case in which it is absolutely necessary when there are existing treatments and systemic issues that can be addressed. Encouraging the impulse thought will not decrease the problems that are plaguing those with depression and anyone else who acts upon suicidal thoughts; it will mostly just increase the body count at best, and at worst it will increase systemic abuse that already exists toward mentally ill people. Not to mention it will give doctors themselves a lawful body count, even if they fully consent to it and are fine with doing it. It's still going to weigh on them no matter what.

Fundamentally I think we're always going to disagree because you believe there exists a point where there is no other option available for depression specifically, and my response to that is that mental health facilities aren't trying hard enough and giving up on it and suggesting that possibility is giving them too much leeway. Basically, to be frank, with mental health treatment being as bad as it is right now, the idea that there is no possible escape can't be determined when everything is slanted against mental health awareness. We should work on those issues first before we decide if there really is a point where depression can't be fixed.

 

[DHP613]

I don't see any difference between "Medically assisted dying" or suicide by gunshot or hanging, It's all awful, it should definitely be outlawed for doctors to do this kind of thing.

 

[Flowey]

I agree but why bump this after so long

 

[fantanoice]

Pretty sure easing someone to sleep is a lot different to shooting them but ok