Can Town (The Official Homestuck Thread)

[SiFi]

See this is what I was saying before Edo put me down for the other thing I was saying Caliborn portraying the pre-scratch trolls as the regular trolls flipped horizontally and color-inverted was spot-on.

 

[Lin Beifong]

Ugh, cliffhangers! The worst kind of hangers!

 

[DragonFreak]

I love these Calliope/Jade talky times.

 

[Walkazo]

Yeah, I was happy to see them. I wonder if the part where Callie draws and Jade narrates will be presented as an intermission of the intermission (A6A6I4I1), seeing as it's a bit of a counterpart to Caliborn's take on the Homestuck story.

Spoiler

Except, seeing as they're on Caliborn's magic stage, it's still kinda part of whatever he's up to.

But he's behind everything in the story, because he's as much of an author parody as a fandom parody. Hence the platette-swapped before trolls he drew, and how perfect that was, and whatnot.

Which circles back to:

See this is what I was saying before Edo put me down for the other thing I was saying Caliborn portraying the pre-scratch trolls as the regular trolls flipped horizontally and color-inverted was spot-on.

That reminded me of what I forgot to say earlier in regards to Karkat, in response to the response you alluded to, which I've always meant to address, but never got around to:

There is actually a bit of a fan theory I have going on related to this. I believe the self-sabotage theme that dominates Karkat's character is actually responsible for why his god-tier incarnations are never shown with wings. At one point, Karkat complains that during their game session, he was the only one who never got to fly by any means. I think his mind has latched onto the thought of "I am the suckiest one of us so I don't get to fly" and incorporated it to such an extent that his god-tier form manifests without wings. It's just another case of him screwing himself over..

Kankri's God Tier has no wings either. So it's more likely a mutant blood-related problem, not Karkat's self-sabotage made manifest. It also relates to Vriska's assertion that Karkat would have made a better human than a troll - she was talking about his personality iirc, but he's also like them in blood and in god-tier form too.

 

[Lin Beifong]

Well that's boring.

I've cooked up that theory before Kankri's introduction, and I hung on to it because I find Karkat's lack of wings as a physical manifestation of his mental issues much more engaging than just a generic "oh, it's in the blood" thing.

 

[Spamton G. Spamton]

Well folks, I am sure that the next update will

Spoiler

take my BREATH away
YEAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHH 8)

 

[Lin Beifong]

Marowak, go home. You're drunk.

And your puns are silly.

 

[Dr. Javelin]

re-reading has made me remember how much i like meenah

also karkat x meenah which is looking more likely than karkat x terezi atm and is also an excellent ship

MEENAH: that guy!
MEENAH: nubbyshouts
MEENAH: that guy is cool!!

 

[Lily x]

I have honestly kind of lost interest in homestuck.
I think I know what is going on from tumblr, but still.

 

[Dr. Javelin]

oho, and in retrospect this page makes a lot more sense (it's when aranea starts mindcontrolling gamzee to manipul8 everything)

 

[Spamton G. Spamton]

Marowak, go home. You're drunk.

And your puns are silly.

My puns are the best shut up
Also im not drnk
*drnkun
*kundrun
*dunrk

 

[Walkazo]

oho, and in retrospect this page makes a lot more sense (it's when aranea starts mindcontrolling gamzee to manipul8 everything)

Pretty sure she was just waking Dirk up. Later, she did say:

ARANEA: I recall once your dream self appeared out of thin air, just as you have done now.
ARANEA: And I did you the favor of helping you on your way. Don't you remem8er?

She didn't start becoming manipulatey until she'd been hanging out with Vriska and started trying to emulate her post-scratch incarnation that they both admired:

MEENAH: araneas all like
MEENAH: learnin to be unscrupulous never thought the girl had it in her
MEENAH: makes me so glubbin proud

Then she didn't use Gamzee until she made up her mind to steal John's ring.

Also, when I was re-reading parts to look for those quotes, I stumbled upon this:

VRISKA: There was a pretty good yarn a8out this treasure I read once during our travels.
VRISKA: Found it in some damn memory, who knows whose.
VRISKA: It was a good read. IMPECCA8LE prose. Failing to do it justice would be the real matter of gray morality here, if you ask me.
VRISKA: 8ut right now I 8n't in the mood to figure out how not to make it fucking suck.
VRISKA: So I'll just say this.
VRISKA: It was supposedly a weapon that once 8elonged to him.
VRISKA: 8ut he could never use it without altering its nature.
VRISKA: Meaning he could only use it once.
VRISKA: So he did.
VRISKA: After that, it could only 8e used again one more time.
VRISKA: And only as a weapon against him.
VRISKA: Knowing it was one of the keys to his defeat, he had it locked away deep in the void.

I'd forgotten that Caliborn used the Sburb emblem treasure... And changing the nature maybe meant that it changed the emblem from whatever his session's emblem was, to the one that the B1 human session used, hence he couldn't use it again, but John could. Or maybe how he used it doesn't do the retcon thing, but did something else? Perhaps related to the magic stage? Or something we haven't seen yet... Very worrisome.

Also, later Vriska's rant dipped back into the "what is heroic?" stuff:

VRISKA: I only ever wanted to do the right thing no matter how it made people judge me, and I don't need a magic ring to do that.
VRISKA: You don't have to 8e alive to make yourself relevant.
VRISKA: And you don't have to 8e a good person to 8e a hero.
VRISKA: You just have to know who you are and stay true to that.
VRISKA: So I'm going to keep fighting for people the only way I ever knew how.
VRISKA: 8y 8eing me.

Makes me wonder if, keeping in mind that she wanted to kill Jack, who's a villain, and keeping in mind that dying in vain can still be Heroic or Just, when Terezi stabbed her, she might have qualified for a Heroic death instead of Just. Or it still might've been Just even without Slick's intervention. But I feel like it wouldn't've been neither: she was fully prepared to take action, and was starting to set off to do so when she died. Anyway, just a though that occurred to me just now.

 

[Lin Beifong]

I just realized something and was in the middle of making a semi-huge post about it, when I had the foresight to read Hussie's god tier ruling text dump again. Turns out that already answers my question, so I would have looked like a complete idiot had I made this post.

Luckily I didn't, so now I just look like a complete idiot who DIDN'T embarrass himself.

also karkat x meenah which is looking more likely than karkat x terezi atm and is also an excellent ship

Make no compromises! Accept no substitutes!

Stand your ground! Fight!

Makes me wonder if, keeping in mind that she wanted to kill Jack, who's a villain, and keeping in mind that dying in vain can still be Heroic or Just, when Terezi stabbed her, she might have qualified for a Heroic death instead of Just. Or it still might've been Just even without Slick's intervention. But I feel like it wouldn't've been neither: she was fully prepared to take action, and was starting to set off to do so when she died. Anyway, just a though that occurred to me just now.

I have a feeling it would have to be Jack stabbing her for it to count as heroic. Wanting to kill a villain, but then getting killed by a third party before getting the chance to do anything doesn't seem that heroic, even in light of the things Hussie said about god tier death rulings.

Interestingly enough though, when Vriska died, I also felt like the death was more heroic than just. Although keep in mind that was back then when very little was known about how exactly the heroic/just thing works. I felt that through Vriska's death, lives were saved and senseless sacrifice was avoided, which would have turned Vriska's death into a case of martyrdom (which was the only explicit criterium for a heroic death back then). She also willingly went along with Terezi's coin toss thing, which maybe the clock COULD interpret as Vriska accepting her death, which would definitely qualify her as a martyr.

 

[Dr. Javelin]

also karkat x meenah which is looking more likely than karkat x terezi atm and is also an excellent ship

Make no compromises! Accept no substitutes!

Stand your ground! Fight!

i want to out of pure stubbornness but at the same time i'm starting to think that maybe i don't like karkat x terezi quite as much as i used to? idk why but in my latest reread i just found it kind of a drag how they both kinda sabotaged their relationship

also maybe i've decided i like meenah just as much (or more than) terezi? she's absolutely hilarious

perhaps i should make that my new otp : O

I have a feeling it would have to be Jack stabbing her for it to count as heroic. Wanting to kill a villain, but then getting killed by a third party before getting the chance to do anything doesn't seem that heroic, even in light of the things Hussie said about god tier death rulings.

Interestingly enough though, when Vriska died, I also felt like the death was more heroic than just. Although keep in mind that was back then when very little was known about how exactly the heroic/just thing works. I felt that through Vriska's death, lives were saved and senseless sacrifice was avoided, which would have turned Vriska's death into a case of martyrdom (which was the only explicit criterium for a heroic death back then). She also willingly went along with Terezi's coin toss thing, which maybe the clock COULD interpret as Vriska accepting her death, which would definitely qualify her as a martyr.

Nah, Vriska wasn't accepting her death. She was gambling that Terezi wouldn't go through with it, and she was almost right. Even to the point that Terezi did really regret the whole thing.

 

[Random Blue]

Yeah I love Meenah, she's great

 

[Walkazo]

Yeah, Meenah's awesome. I also like how the few glimpses we get into the Condesce's personality, she's got the same sorta spunk, only Meenah didn't commit genocide and all that jazz, so she's a lot easier to root for.

I never know who should be with whom in Homestuck. Like, I'd be cool with Karkat x Meenah (good chemistry) or Karkat x Terezi (deep caring beneath the self-sabotage) or even Karkat x Jade (it had potential to become something) working out in the end, and at the same time, Terezi x Dave and Dave x Jade are both cool ships to me, and I liked Davesprite x Jade while it lasted.

I have a feeling it would have to be Jack stabbing her for it to count as heroic. Wanting to kill a villain, but then getting killed by a third party before getting the chance to do anything doesn't seem that heroic, even in light of the things Hussie said about god tier death rulings.

Interestingly enough though, when Vriska died, I also felt like the death was more heroic than just. Although keep in mind that was back then when very little was known about how exactly the heroic/just thing works. I felt that through Vriska's death, lives were saved and senseless sacrifice was avoided, which would have turned Vriska's death into a case of martyrdom (which was the only explicit criterium for a heroic death back then). She also willingly went along with Terezi's coin toss thing, which maybe the clock COULD interpret as Vriska accepting her death, which would definitely qualify her as a martyr.

Nah, Vriska wasn't accepting her death. She was gambling that Terezi wouldn't go through with it, and she was almost right. Even to the point that Terezi did really regret the whole thing.

Yeah, Vriska was fully expecting to survive that coin toss. In a way, she is a martyr, she was killed because she wouldn't back down from her commitment to fight Jacl - which she wanted to do to save her friends (Heroic), but also gill her selfish need to be in the middle of everything important going on despite the consequences to others (Just).

 

[Baby Mario Bloops]

Well....this update seems to be rather interesting...

I don't remember who said it, but their Denizen comment might be true...

 

[Random Blue]

First thing I thought is "Roxy's looking a little derpy there in that last panel"

 

[Dr. Javelin]

roxy usually looks a little derpy, even when she isn't

just like how john always looks like a goofy nerd even when he isn't

 

[Tyrell Badd]

gee, john sure doesn't give a shit knowing jade and dave are dead

 

[Nabber]

gee, john sure doesn't give a shit knowing jade and dave are dead

"aw man"

 

[Dr. Javelin]

clearly the face of "not caring at all"

 

[Lin Beifong]

also maybe i've decided i like meenah just as much (or more than) terezi? she's absolutely hilarious

Ugh, shameful. I would have never thought YOU would turn out a deserter.

I'm not serious.

Nah, Vriska wasn't accepting her death. She was gambling that Terezi wouldn't go through with it, and she was almost right. Even to the point that Terezi did really regret the whole thing.

Gambling means accepting the possibility of loss. Even if the odds are stacked in your favor, even if you yourself stacked the odds in your favor, some part of you acknowledges that it is possible to lose, and you act in spite of it. That is what a gamble is, after all. Unless of course you're stupid and oblivious, which Vriska isn't.

The fact that it was even possible for Terezi, a normal player, to kill Vriska, a god tier, makes this evident. Under normal circumstances, this would have been unthinkable. But Vriska willingly let her guard down, and turned her back on an armed enemy with the intent to kill her. Sure, a lot of it was probably hubris, but the action alone is so outrageous that you have to have exact knowledge of your odds to go through with borderline suicidal behavior like that. Unless you're stupid, which again, I don't think Vriska is. So I'm convinced she knew the odds and, at least on a subconscious level, accepted the possible outcome of death, which is why she went through with this gamble.

Additionally to all that, the point that is to prove here is not "Did Vriska accept death?", it is "Could the clock come to this conclusion?". Given everything I just said, I think it is likely. If you gamble, you have to accept what happens. If you're in a casino and gamble your money away, you can't tell the employers "Well yeah, I gambled, but I didn't think I could really lose, so it doesn't count" and expect it to be taken seriously. They're gonna tell you "You accepted the gamble, you accepted the odds, so you have to accept the outcome" (actually, they probably wouldn't say anything because it's ridiculous, but they would if they were forced to evaluate your behavior).

The clock sets up a similar scenario. You willingly accept a gamble, with full knowledge of the odds, that means you also accepted the outcome. No matter how much you may whine about it afterwards: You accepted what was gonna happen. That's what gambling is essentially about.

 

[SiFi]

There's a problem with your argument Edo. You're saying Vriska isn't stupid when in actuality she's a dumb poopoo-headed bitch. I think you may need to reread the comic from the start, and no, you can't pass "go".

 

[Lin Beifong]

Well let me rephrase:

Unrelated to her exact intellectual capabilities, I think Vriska knows what a gamble is and understands the concepts of odds and loss, and how they relate.

gee, john sure doesn't give a shit knowing jade and dave are dead

One of the stages of grief (the first one even, iirc), is denial. Denial can express itself in many different ways. Obviously John isn't outright denying that those deaths happened, but there's a chance he hasn't realized the actual gravity of those deaths yet. Right now it is just an information. He will have to get into a situation where those deaths are so apparent and undeniable that the full emotional impact will come crashing down on him.