Smash Bros. Character/Roster Merit
- Thread starter SonicMario
- Start date
This was all a very good read, even if I haven't necessarily read all of it. I'll probably have to re-read it again just to make sure I got everything. I'll just give some (relatively) short replies to what you say about each character.
Ness: Yeah, when it comes to Ness, he's probably the most widely recognized character from the EarthBound series, now amplified thanks to the release on the Virtual Console in both the US AND Europe (for the first time in forever). While I WOULD like to point out that the EarthBound series is still moderately popular in Japan, it is, indeed, relatively obscure overseas, and only has the attention it has likely because of Super Smash Bros. The only thing is, I'm a bit annoyed by people demanding that NEss be announced already, even though he's been unlockable in at least two games before this one... Not to mention, if Captain Falcon's coming back, Ness certainly is.
Jigglypuff: This, on the other hand... Well, yeah, I always keep telling myself, "Jigglypuff's been there from the beginning, they're not going to remove her (yeah, I'm calling Jigglypuff a 'she', whatever) now", and that she's unique, even if she's based on Kirby's moveset a little, and all that... yet I can't help but be in awe that she's actually made it this far. Considering that there are a LOT of people who dislike her (heaven forbid a cutesy character be in this supercereal serious game), and her relevance has decreased quite a bit since the first generation of Pokémon, and her character in the anime faded out of existence (unless she made a sudden appearance recently that I'm unaware of), and thus I can't help but wonder/feel that yeah, maybe there is a chance that Jigglypuff won't come back. But with the introduction of Fairy-type Pokémon, and Jigglypuff being part Pokémon-type now, I think there's a sudden increase in relevance for her, and thus still has got a pretty good chance of staying. Plus, when people beg for Ness, they usually include Jigglypuff along with him, so she does have a following.
Mr. Game & Watch: Now I think, it'd be a major tease/dick-move on Sakurai's part to have Mr. Game & Watch show up in Pac-Man's trailer and NOT have him return as a playable character. Really, I can't think of much of a reason NOT to include him, given all the other characters that have returned. Unique moveset, represents an entire generation and system produced by Nintendo, he's got a lot going for him. Yeah, I feel he's not going anywhere.
Mewtwo: You know, given how much of a following Mewtwo has, I would THINK he'd be guaranteed to be in, but you raise a lot of good points. I personally don't see boundaries in how many representatives a certain franchise gets... Or rather, I do, but I think there's a difference between Pokémon, probably the second biggest franchise/cash-cow Nintendo has, getting a dozen playable characters, and a series/franchise like, say, Pikmin, squeezing out just as many characters. I guess what I'm getting at is, I feel like they could include Jigglypuff AND Mewtwo, even though there are already 4 playable Pokémon (and maybe another possible newcomer? who knows). I'd also like to point out that, even though Mewtwo WAS ultimately cut from Brawl there was data for him on the disc, along with several other characters, and if I recall correctly, Mewtwo's seemed to be the closest to being done out of the characters. Though maybe I'm remembering that wrong, and as you said, the fact that he WAS ultimately cut makes his return questionable... but then again, he WAS intended to be in the original Super Smash Bros., along with Bowser and King Dedede, so maybe that could stand for someone. And Sakurai IS aware that people want him back, so who knows... I'd say it's still possible. Honestly, I'd like him to get in, just to make all those idiots that whine over "Greninja getting in over Mewtwo" look as stupid as they act now.
Falco: As a guy being all about the details, I could look up and list all the things that separate Falco from Fox, and how, much like Luigi from Mario, the differences have only gotten more apparent with each new game. Regardless, though, I feel like Falco, and the Star Fox franchise, is popular enough that even if they don't include a new Star Fox character or bring back Wolf, they'll at least bring back Falco. Plus I've heard people call him the Luigi to Fox's Mario, and I think that statement's kind of true.
Ice Climbers: Now, the only thing that really hinders the Ice Climbers return is the fact that not only is their game really obscure, but it's also not very good (which is why I would LOVE Nintendo to remake the game at some point, make the jumping less restrained, etc.). Other then that, I don't see much of a reason for them NOT to come back. Sure, they were originally brought in to represent the NES era of games, and have since gotten other characters to fill in that role (discounting Pit and Little Mac, who have appeared in more modern games, there's still R.O.B.), but they have a unique characteristic when it comes to their moveset, and I really think that counts for something when it comes to returning veterans. Sakurai DID say he was having trouble with characters like the Ice Climbers for the 3DS, controlling two characters at once and all that, but I feel like with Rosalina and Luma there, Ice Climbers shouldn't be that much of a problem to deal with anymore. There are also a bunch of "leaks" and rumors that say they were cute, but these rumors also said Dr. Mario was back as a separate character, so I doubt they're real. So yeah, I'm saying they're staying, fo rthe time being.
Ganondorf: Here's a little bit of trivia; turns out, Ganondorf originally wasn't meant to be in Super Smash Bros. Melee. He was included to pad out the roster, and because the team noticed that his body shape made it easy to make a moveset for him based on Captain Falcon's. I feel like the fact that he's typically seen wielding a sword really irks people, because they think "why doesn't he ever use that?!" But like you said, he's the main antagonist of one of Nintendo's biggest franchises, and his return is all but certain. The only question is with Sakurai give him a unique moveset, like a top-down reworking a la Bowser to make him different from Captain Falcon (well, MORE different, me being the details guy and all), or will he essentially remain the same?
Young Link: At this point, I don't even see why he should be considered. Yeah, there was the recent Ocarina of Time remake, but since we already have Toon Link, which is just Young Link but... well, toonier, I feel like it would be highly redundant.
Roy: Roy is like Mewtwo, in that he has quite the following of fans hoping for his return. Unfortunately, the game he starred in was never released in overseas, and since he was kind of a clone of Marth, there's not that much to work with to make him all that different for a return... Not to mention, Ike kind of fulfills his role as a slower, more powerful sword-user from Fire Emblem, AND we already have a Marth clone in the form of Lucina, so anything Roy could bring to the roster has already been taken.
Pichu: Nothing is without it's fans, and I know at least one person who wouldn't mind seeing Pichu return. However, given that Pichu has kind of faded in terms of relevance, is literally a baby Pikachu (thus essentially a Pikachu clone built into it's DNA) and that Pichu hurts itself when it uses electric attacks (Which yeah, could be removed, but it kind of removes the only thing separating it from Pikachu other then being weaker and slightly faster), Pichu's return is unlikely to the point of being laughable. There wasn't even any data for it in Brawl, even though all the other Melee veterans had data on the disc. Yes, even...
Dr. Mario: You're rant is 100% true and I pretty much agree with it (also, whoa there...). Having said that, I do have a soft spot for Dr. Mario, and wouldn't mind seeing him in this game. Hopefully not as a playable fighter as certain rumors would suggest (though I wouldn't mind it), but at least as an alternate costume for Mario.
Wario: Was my most-wanted character since Super Smash Bros. started (along with King Dedede), and more importantly, his icon is seen numerous times. Plus Ashley is an Assist Trophy. He's going to be in this game. All that matters now is when he'll be revealed.
Meta Knight: ...Well, he's back so... yeah.
Snake: I think I've said it elsewhere, but I'll say it again here, out of ALL the characters I would cut from Brawl, Snake would be the one I'd actually do it with. And I'm usually not a fan of cutting characters, but quite frankly, I've never really liked the idea of Snake being included in Super Smash Bros. For one, even though Metal Gear games HAVE appeared in Nintendo consoles, it's a series more closely associated with the PayStation consoles. For another, even though there are some wacky/zany things that happen in the Metal Gear series, it's more realistic setting and tone kind of clashes with the more fantastical tone of most Nintendo games. It's really hard to explain, and I realize half the stuff are totally just stuff that bothers me and not actual reasons why he should be cut, but yeah, that's how I feel. And honestly, if it weren't fro the fact that Hideo Kojima personally requested that Snake be in the game, I highly doubt he would be considered, or that ANYONE would consider him for a playable character, for that matter. Then again, I supposed it IS because of him that it opened the door for other third-party characters to join and thus why Sonic, Mega Man, and Pac-Man are in the games, so there's that at least. However, since Hideo Kojima, the guy who requested him last time and helped develop the game (specifically by designing the Shadow Moses Island stage), doesn't know if Snake's in the game or not, I take that as a sign that he's not in the game. Some people say Sega reps said the same thing about Sonic, but from what I'VE read, it just sounded like they were hesistant to say anything, or that they could neither confirm nor deny it. I dunno, seems fishy either way.
Pokémon Trainer: He's not coming back, since there will be no character-swapping in matches, and since he doesn't actually do any of the fighting... well, yeah. As for Squirtle and Ivysaur... It's weird, despite being unique characters, I feel very quick to write them both off. Maybe it's the fact that they're G1 Pokémon, and I'd like to balance the Pokémon roster with Pokémon from all generations. Maybe it's because I don't view them as being as popular as Charizard (especially Ivysaur, who's the most unique of the trio). I guess I would like them to return, but I'm expecting them to be cut.
R.O.B.: R.O.B. has a unique moveset (that could use some tweeking, I'll admit) and is an important part of Nintendo's history, in particular representing the NES era and helping Nintendo have a presence in the US after the video game crash of 1983. Sure, the R.O.B. itself was slow and impractical to play with, and his games aren't all that good on their own, but a relic of history is a relic of history, and I highly doubt that if Nintendo didn't use R.O.B. to sneak the NES into toy stores, they wouldn't have eventually exploded in popularity like they did! And thus I sincerely hope that R.O.B. DOES return!
Wolf: Ironically, even though I probably played as Wolf more then Fox or Falco, and even though I think he's a cool character, I feel like he's going to be cut more then any other character (except maybe Snake). Personally, I wouldn't mind if he left, especially if they replaced him with a more potentially unique Star Fox rep like Krystal. Hell, the fact that he was considered and included at all surprises even me... like what were they thinking when it came to Wolf? Did they want more villains in the roster but, like Ganondorf, didn't have to time to create a fully unique moveset? Of course, almost ALL of his moves to vastly different things compared to Fox or Falco, but I don't feel like debating that right now.
Lucas: I honestly REALLY don't want Lucas to be cut, since I don't want Ness to be the only EarthBound/Mother rep again. It's strange, though, I can think of dozens of other EarthBound/Mother characters that can have unique movesets, but it would be weird to include them over the main character of the third game (except maybe Flint). Thanks to Lucina, though, I feel more confident that he'll return. Eh, fingers crossed.
Whoa, are we really goin into Super Smash Bros. 4 territory? The game's not even out yet. I suppose I'll comment on them later.
Ness: Yeah, when it comes to Ness, he's probably the most widely recognized character from the EarthBound series, now amplified thanks to the release on the Virtual Console in both the US AND Europe (for the first time in forever). While I WOULD like to point out that the EarthBound series is still moderately popular in Japan, it is, indeed, relatively obscure overseas, and only has the attention it has likely because of Super Smash Bros. The only thing is, I'm a bit annoyed by people demanding that NEss be announced already, even though he's been unlockable in at least two games before this one... Not to mention, if Captain Falcon's coming back, Ness certainly is.
Jigglypuff: This, on the other hand... Well, yeah, I always keep telling myself, "Jigglypuff's been there from the beginning, they're not going to remove her (yeah, I'm calling Jigglypuff a 'she', whatever) now", and that she's unique, even if she's based on Kirby's moveset a little, and all that... yet I can't help but be in awe that she's actually made it this far. Considering that there are a LOT of people who dislike her (heaven forbid a cutesy character be in this super
Mr. Game & Watch: Now I think, it'd be a major tease/dick-move on Sakurai's part to have Mr. Game & Watch show up in Pac-Man's trailer and NOT have him return as a playable character. Really, I can't think of much of a reason NOT to include him, given all the other characters that have returned. Unique moveset, represents an entire generation and system produced by Nintendo, he's got a lot going for him. Yeah, I feel he's not going anywhere.
Mewtwo: You know, given how much of a following Mewtwo has, I would THINK he'd be guaranteed to be in, but you raise a lot of good points. I personally don't see boundaries in how many representatives a certain franchise gets... Or rather, I do, but I think there's a difference between Pokémon, probably the second biggest franchise/cash-cow Nintendo has, getting a dozen playable characters, and a series/franchise like, say, Pikmin, squeezing out just as many characters. I guess what I'm getting at is, I feel like they could include Jigglypuff AND Mewtwo, even though there are already 4 playable Pokémon (and maybe another possible newcomer? who knows). I'd also like to point out that, even though Mewtwo WAS ultimately cut from Brawl there was data for him on the disc, along with several other characters, and if I recall correctly, Mewtwo's seemed to be the closest to being done out of the characters. Though maybe I'm remembering that wrong, and as you said, the fact that he WAS ultimately cut makes his return questionable... but then again, he WAS intended to be in the original Super Smash Bros., along with Bowser and King Dedede, so maybe that could stand for someone. And Sakurai IS aware that people want him back, so who knows... I'd say it's still possible. Honestly, I'd like him to get in, just to make all those idiots that whine over "Greninja getting in over Mewtwo" look as stupid as they act now.
Falco: As a guy being all about the details, I could look up and list all the things that separate Falco from Fox, and how, much like Luigi from Mario, the differences have only gotten more apparent with each new game. Regardless, though, I feel like Falco, and the Star Fox franchise, is popular enough that even if they don't include a new Star Fox character or bring back Wolf, they'll at least bring back Falco. Plus I've heard people call him the Luigi to Fox's Mario, and I think that statement's kind of true.
Ice Climbers: Now, the only thing that really hinders the Ice Climbers return is the fact that not only is their game really obscure, but it's also not very good (which is why I would LOVE Nintendo to remake the game at some point, make the jumping less restrained, etc.). Other then that, I don't see much of a reason for them NOT to come back. Sure, they were originally brought in to represent the NES era of games, and have since gotten other characters to fill in that role (discounting Pit and Little Mac, who have appeared in more modern games, there's still R.O.B.), but they have a unique characteristic when it comes to their moveset, and I really think that counts for something when it comes to returning veterans. Sakurai DID say he was having trouble with characters like the Ice Climbers for the 3DS, controlling two characters at once and all that, but I feel like with Rosalina and Luma there, Ice Climbers shouldn't be that much of a problem to deal with anymore. There are also a bunch of "leaks" and rumors that say they were cute, but these rumors also said Dr. Mario was back as a separate character, so I doubt they're real. So yeah, I'm saying they're staying, fo rthe time being.
Ganondorf: Here's a little bit of trivia; turns out, Ganondorf originally wasn't meant to be in Super Smash Bros. Melee. He was included to pad out the roster, and because the team noticed that his body shape made it easy to make a moveset for him based on Captain Falcon's. I feel like the fact that he's typically seen wielding a sword really irks people, because they think "why doesn't he ever use that?!" But like you said, he's the main antagonist of one of Nintendo's biggest franchises, and his return is all but certain. The only question is with Sakurai give him a unique moveset, like a top-down reworking a la Bowser to make him different from Captain Falcon (well, MORE different, me being the details guy and all), or will he essentially remain the same?
Young Link: At this point, I don't even see why he should be considered. Yeah, there was the recent Ocarina of Time remake, but since we already have Toon Link, which is just Young Link but... well, toonier, I feel like it would be highly redundant.
Roy: Roy is like Mewtwo, in that he has quite the following of fans hoping for his return. Unfortunately, the game he starred in was never released in overseas, and since he was kind of a clone of Marth, there's not that much to work with to make him all that different for a return... Not to mention, Ike kind of fulfills his role as a slower, more powerful sword-user from Fire Emblem, AND we already have a Marth clone in the form of Lucina, so anything Roy could bring to the roster has already been taken.
Pichu: Nothing is without it's fans, and I know at least one person who wouldn't mind seeing Pichu return. However, given that Pichu has kind of faded in terms of relevance, is literally a baby Pikachu (thus essentially a Pikachu clone built into it's DNA) and that Pichu hurts itself when it uses electric attacks (Which yeah, could be removed, but it kind of removes the only thing separating it from Pikachu other then being weaker and slightly faster), Pichu's return is unlikely to the point of being laughable. There wasn't even any data for it in Brawl, even though all the other Melee veterans had data on the disc. Yes, even...
Dr. Mario: You're rant is 100% true and I pretty much agree with it (also, whoa there...). Having said that, I do have a soft spot for Dr. Mario, and wouldn't mind seeing him in this game. Hopefully not as a playable fighter as certain rumors would suggest (though I wouldn't mind it), but at least as an alternate costume for Mario.
Wario: Was my most-wanted character since Super Smash Bros. started (along with King Dedede), and more importantly, his icon is seen numerous times. Plus Ashley is an Assist Trophy. He's going to be in this game. All that matters now is when he'll be revealed.
Meta Knight: ...Well, he's back so... yeah.
Snake: I think I've said it elsewhere, but I'll say it again here, out of ALL the characters I would cut from Brawl, Snake would be the one I'd actually do it with. And I'm usually not a fan of cutting characters, but quite frankly, I've never really liked the idea of Snake being included in Super Smash Bros. For one, even though Metal Gear games HAVE appeared in Nintendo consoles, it's a series more closely associated with the PayStation consoles. For another, even though there are some wacky/zany things that happen in the Metal Gear series, it's more realistic setting and tone kind of clashes with the more fantastical tone of most Nintendo games. It's really hard to explain, and I realize half the stuff are totally just stuff that bothers me and not actual reasons why he should be cut, but yeah, that's how I feel. And honestly, if it weren't fro the fact that Hideo Kojima personally requested that Snake be in the game, I highly doubt he would be considered, or that ANYONE would consider him for a playable character, for that matter. Then again, I supposed it IS because of him that it opened the door for other third-party characters to join and thus why Sonic, Mega Man, and Pac-Man are in the games, so there's that at least. However, since Hideo Kojima, the guy who requested him last time and helped develop the game (specifically by designing the Shadow Moses Island stage), doesn't know if Snake's in the game or not, I take that as a sign that he's not in the game. Some people say Sega reps said the same thing about Sonic, but from what I'VE read, it just sounded like they were hesistant to say anything, or that they could neither confirm nor deny it. I dunno, seems fishy either way.
Pokémon Trainer: He's not coming back, since there will be no character-swapping in matches, and since he doesn't actually do any of the fighting... well, yeah. As for Squirtle and Ivysaur... It's weird, despite being unique characters, I feel very quick to write them both off. Maybe it's the fact that they're G1 Pokémon, and I'd like to balance the Pokémon roster with Pokémon from all generations. Maybe it's because I don't view them as being as popular as Charizard (especially Ivysaur, who's the most unique of the trio). I guess I would like them to return, but I'm expecting them to be cut.
R.O.B.: R.O.B. has a unique moveset (that could use some tweeking, I'll admit) and is an important part of Nintendo's history, in particular representing the NES era and helping Nintendo have a presence in the US after the video game crash of 1983. Sure, the R.O.B. itself was slow and impractical to play with, and his games aren't all that good on their own, but a relic of history is a relic of history, and I highly doubt that if Nintendo didn't use R.O.B. to sneak the NES into toy stores, they wouldn't have eventually exploded in popularity like they did! And thus I sincerely hope that R.O.B. DOES return!
Wolf: Ironically, even though I probably played as Wolf more then Fox or Falco, and even though I think he's a cool character, I feel like he's going to be cut more then any other character (except maybe Snake). Personally, I wouldn't mind if he left, especially if they replaced him with a more potentially unique Star Fox rep like Krystal. Hell, the fact that he was considered and included at all surprises even me... like what were they thinking when it came to Wolf? Did they want more villains in the roster but, like Ganondorf, didn't have to time to create a fully unique moveset? Of course, almost ALL of his moves to vastly different things compared to Fox or Falco, but I don't feel like debating that right now.
Lucas: I honestly REALLY don't want Lucas to be cut, since I don't want Ness to be the only EarthBound/Mother rep again. It's strange, though, I can think of dozens of other EarthBound/Mother characters that can have unique movesets, but it would be weird to include them over the main character of the third game (except maybe Flint). Thanks to Lucina, though, I feel more confident that he'll return. Eh, fingers crossed.
Whoa, are we really goin into Super Smash Bros. 4 territory? The game's not even out yet. I suppose I'll comment on them later.
Sorry to double post, but I'd like to bring up something. When it comes to Super Smash Bros. Melee, Sakurai worked in it for a grand total of 13 months... and didn't take any holidays or weekends off during that time. It was one of the tightest development periods you can imagine, considering Nintendo wanted it to be a launch title for the GameCube, and show off what the system was capable of. This, in a way, could explain why the roster was what it was; most of the inclusions were essentially copies of existing characters, since Sakurai didn't have the time to develop fully unique movesets. Take Ganondorf for example, like I said, he wasn't planned to be in the game at all, but was added once they realized he has a similar enough built to Captain Falcon to borrow a moveset from him. I also feel like Sakurai wanted to make this bigger and better then the first game, hence why there were so many characters with similar movesets, it was basically a means to pad out the roster. That became less the case in Brawl, and certainly isn't the case in the 3DS and Wii U games, since the only newcomer clone so far is Lucina. Sure, some returning clone characters are in, but it definitely feels like Sakurai wants to make them feel different, like even when comparing Link to Toon Link, there are still minor differences so it's not like you're using the same exact character.
Anyway, just thought I'd bring that up. I certainly agree with you, in that Melee has probably the weakest roster (the 64 game gets a pass for being the first one AND having a shoestring budget), but I can understand why it was what it was.
...Well, so long as I have another post here, I might as well weigh-in my thoughts on the fourth installments newcomer merits.
Mega Man: I'll admit, I wasn't THAT big on Mega Man hype as so many other people, but he was still in my top 10 most wanted characters before his reveal. I dunno if I'd say he has as much merit as Sonic, but he definitely fits in well in Smash Bros. and I sincerely hope he comes back in the inevitable fifth (or rather sixth) installment).
Mii Fighters: I'll be honest, I don't see what they big fuss is. I've heard the arguments, that including Miis takes away the idea that Nintendo (and others) all-star characters are fighting each other, but honestly, with how much Miis has been featured in Nintendo games starting with the Wii, I feel like they've earned their place in the Nintendo line-up... even if they literally are a blank slate to create whatever kind of characters you want. Actually, that's what I found the most appealing about Miis as fighters, customization. That would be their core character trait. And while other characters get customizable moves, none of them are quite as adjustable as Mii Fighters are. I dunno, I just really like it. And if there are Miis in future Nintendo consoles, I could see them being there, too.
Little Mac: Easily my second most-wanted character for the games (after Ridley), the question that lingered over my mind when he was revealed (after passing out from sheer excitement) was "What took them this long?!" True, Little Mac has a unique moveset, in that it's based entirely around punches and being grounded, but I always thought it was weird how a character, who is a boxer by trade, was never featured in this Nintendo fighting game. It's probably because Punch-Out!! isn't as popular in Japan as it is in America, even as a cult classic NES game. Either way, glad he's finally in, and here's hoping he's here to stay!
Pac-Man: Another confession, I was anti-Pac-Man at first, REALLY didn't see the appeal in him as a playable character. It took GameXplain speculating possible movesets for him that finally got me on Team Pac, and quite frankly, I'm glad he made the cut. Oh sure, Bandai-Namco was assisting in developing the game, but that was no guarantee that Pac-Man would be in the game. I mean, it made it more likely, but it wasn't a guarantee. I like the appeal of Pac-Man, in terms of being a unique fighter, while also being a representation of video games as a whole. Like, I doubt there isn't a single sole anywhere who hasn't at least heard of Pac-Man, he's just THAT iconic! Plus he's Shigeru Miyamoto's favorite video game character, and he even personalyl requested to Sakurai himself that he be in Brawl... which, at the time, Sakurai only thought of him as the circle with a piece missing, and said that would be difficult to do. I guess it helps to have the guys who make Pac-Man's games weigh in on what to give him for moves. Even moreso then Mega Man, I'm conflicted on whether or not I'd be upset if he didn't return in the next installment. I think he's awesome but still, Bandai-Namco might not be part of the development team next time, so... Well, who knows. Maybe if Shigeru Miyamoto still wants him around, he'll stick around.
Villager: I remember when Sakurai said he considered the Animal Crossing village boy to be in Brawl, but thought that the cute innocence of Animal Crossing would be ruined if he was included in a fighting game. ...I don't know what changed his mind, but he's here now, and... he was kind of right to an extent, given the glint in his eye during the debut trailer. So long innocence, indeed. Not that I don't like him, though. Animal Crossing is a popular franchise, and it's good to have a representative of that franchise, especially one as unique as the Villager's, using all of his various tools to fight, it's almost like Mr. Game & Watch! I look forward to playing as him.
Robin: You know, I thought Robin's inclusion would be unlikely, as I thought Chrom would be the more obvious choice, but dang if I'm not ecstatic that he/she's playable! Like, for the longest time, I've wanted a magic-user from the Fire Emblem series instead of just another sword-fighter, and Robin is such a great choice, given that he uses spells AND swords, AND he's one of the main characters of the most recent Fire Emblem game, Awakening! In fact, I might just main him along with Little Mac and a certain someone else who may or may not make it... Like seriously, I can't contain my excitement for this guy/gal!
Palutena: Much like Pac-Man, I was kind of anti-Palutena, though not as much. It's not that I didn't want her playable, I just thought that, I dunno, she'd be better suited as a mentor figure then a fighter, despite yes,
I warmed up to the idea more with the supposed screenshots (which might have been faked) and the Gematsu leak (which might be false now), and I think she has a cool moveset. Still, not that big on her. Don't hate or dislike her, she just very "eh" to me. Still, I'll gladly take her over Dark Pit... ugh, don't even start.
Wii Fit Trainer: I personally LOVE the sheer audacity of her inclusion, it's like she was put in deliberately to catch everyone off guard! Thankfully, there's more to her then the WTF factor, since she's from a serious of HIGHLY popular... well, games would not exactly be fitting, but I guess I'll call them that here. Plus, she appears to be a good character to use, if people who have played the demo are to be believed. I dunno, I just really lik eher, and kind of hope she'll be in other Super Smash Bros. games.
Rosalina and Luma: The main complaint I keep hearing form people is that Rosalina "hasn't paid her dues", that she's a relatively recent addition to the Mario franchise, and thus doesn't have the longevity of more popular choices like, say, Toad or Bowser Jr. Honestly, though, I think she make sup for it by having a a definite in-game backstory to who she is and why she does what she does. She's also quite popular, if Mario Kart and Super Mario 3D World are anything to go by. Not to mention, she has a completely unique moveset, so I consider her a more then welcome addition to the roster. Yeah, I would like to see Toad playable at long last, but until then, I'm good with Rosalina. ...And maybe Bowser Jr., if he also gets in.
Lucina: Ho boy, this is going to get messy. I have no problems with Lucina's inclusion, but I will admit, yeah, her inclusion as a playable character seems baffling to me. Apparently, she was meant to be an alternate costume for Marth, but the differences between her and Marth were so much that she got her own character slot... I dunno, I feel like it's a really flimsy justification to include another clone character, even if I personally have nothing against clones and I'm all about the details. I heard that there was originally going to be another character (not from Fire Emblem, just in general) that didn't make the cut, and Lucina was made playable to makes sure not to compromise the roster size. I personally would buy that over the former argument. Still, don't mind her inclusion, but I'd say she'd be the first I'd cut for the next game, even if I do like her.
Greninja: Alright, I want to say right off the bat that Greninja's reveal just perplexed me for days. I thought he was a cool addition, but I just couldn't understand why HE of all Pokémon would be included! So here's what I've come up with, having looked into it a bit more:
Apparently, there was a mandate form Nintendo to include a 6th generation Pokémon, and apparently, Sakurai himself chose Greninja purely based on his looks. Hell, by that point in development, he didn't even have a name yet! That's right, they included a Pokémon character who didn' thave a name and was included just because he looked cool! I mean, sure, he's semi-popular now, but it just feels weird to include him when he wasn't promoted at all in any other Pokémon-related merchandise. And yeah, I can safely say I was more surprised (more like bewildered) to see his inclusion then even the Wii Fit Trainer's!
That being said, I've definitely warmed up to him, and I'm left wondering if he'll be in future installments... Personally, I kind of hope so. Coolness factors can go a long way... Though I would have liked to see Hawlucha instead (especially since now, in the anime, Ash apparently caught a Hawlucha).
Anyway, just thought I'd bring that up. I certainly agree with you, in that Melee has probably the weakest roster (the 64 game gets a pass for being the first one AND having a shoestring budget), but I can understand why it was what it was.
...Well, so long as I have another post here, I might as well weigh-in my thoughts on the fourth installments newcomer merits.
Mega Man: I'll admit, I wasn't THAT big on Mega Man hype as so many other people, but he was still in my top 10 most wanted characters before his reveal. I dunno if I'd say he has as much merit as Sonic, but he definitely fits in well in Smash Bros. and I sincerely hope he comes back in the inevitable fifth (or rather sixth) installment).
Mii Fighters: I'll be honest, I don't see what they big fuss is. I've heard the arguments, that including Miis takes away the idea that Nintendo (and others) all-star characters are fighting each other, but honestly, with how much Miis has been featured in Nintendo games starting with the Wii, I feel like they've earned their place in the Nintendo line-up... even if they literally are a blank slate to create whatever kind of characters you want. Actually, that's what I found the most appealing about Miis as fighters, customization. That would be their core character trait. And while other characters get customizable moves, none of them are quite as adjustable as Mii Fighters are. I dunno, I just really like it. And if there are Miis in future Nintendo consoles, I could see them being there, too.
Little Mac: Easily my second most-wanted character for the games (after Ridley), the question that lingered over my mind when he was revealed (after passing out from sheer excitement) was "What took them this long?!" True, Little Mac has a unique moveset, in that it's based entirely around punches and being grounded, but I always thought it was weird how a character, who is a boxer by trade, was never featured in this Nintendo fighting game. It's probably because Punch-Out!! isn't as popular in Japan as it is in America, even as a cult classic NES game. Either way, glad he's finally in, and here's hoping he's here to stay!
Pac-Man: Another confession, I was anti-Pac-Man at first, REALLY didn't see the appeal in him as a playable character. It took GameXplain speculating possible movesets for him that finally got me on Team Pac, and quite frankly, I'm glad he made the cut. Oh sure, Bandai-Namco was assisting in developing the game, but that was no guarantee that Pac-Man would be in the game. I mean, it made it more likely, but it wasn't a guarantee. I like the appeal of Pac-Man, in terms of being a unique fighter, while also being a representation of video games as a whole. Like, I doubt there isn't a single sole anywhere who hasn't at least heard of Pac-Man, he's just THAT iconic! Plus he's Shigeru Miyamoto's favorite video game character, and he even personalyl requested to Sakurai himself that he be in Brawl... which, at the time, Sakurai only thought of him as the circle with a piece missing, and said that would be difficult to do. I guess it helps to have the guys who make Pac-Man's games weigh in on what to give him for moves. Even moreso then Mega Man, I'm conflicted on whether or not I'd be upset if he didn't return in the next installment. I think he's awesome but still, Bandai-Namco might not be part of the development team next time, so... Well, who knows. Maybe if Shigeru Miyamoto still wants him around, he'll stick around.
Villager: I remember when Sakurai said he considered the Animal Crossing village boy to be in Brawl, but thought that the cute innocence of Animal Crossing would be ruined if he was included in a fighting game. ...I don't know what changed his mind, but he's here now, and... he was kind of right to an extent, given the glint in his eye during the debut trailer. So long innocence, indeed. Not that I don't like him, though. Animal Crossing is a popular franchise, and it's good to have a representative of that franchise, especially one as unique as the Villager's, using all of his various tools to fight, it's almost like Mr. Game & Watch! I look forward to playing as him.
Robin: You know, I thought Robin's inclusion would be unlikely, as I thought Chrom would be the more obvious choice, but dang if I'm not ecstatic that he/she's playable! Like, for the longest time, I've wanted a magic-user from the Fire Emblem series instead of just another sword-fighter, and Robin is such a great choice, given that he uses spells AND swords, AND he's one of the main characters of the most recent Fire Emblem game, Awakening! In fact, I might just main him along with Little Mac and a certain someone else who may or may not make it... Like seriously, I can't contain my excitement for this guy/gal!
Palutena: Much like Pac-Man, I was kind of anti-Palutena, though not as much. It's not that I didn't want her playable, I just thought that, I dunno, she'd be better suited as a mentor figure then a fighter, despite yes,
fighting Pit in Kid Icaurs: Uprising at one point.
Wii Fit Trainer: I personally LOVE the sheer audacity of her inclusion, it's like she was put in deliberately to catch everyone off guard! Thankfully, there's more to her then the WTF factor, since she's from a serious of HIGHLY popular... well, games would not exactly be fitting, but I guess I'll call them that here. Plus, she appears to be a good character to use, if people who have played the demo are to be believed. I dunno, I just really lik eher, and kind of hope she'll be in other Super Smash Bros. games.
Rosalina and Luma: The main complaint I keep hearing form people is that Rosalina "hasn't paid her dues", that she's a relatively recent addition to the Mario franchise, and thus doesn't have the longevity of more popular choices like, say, Toad or Bowser Jr. Honestly, though, I think she make sup for it by having a a definite in-game backstory to who she is and why she does what she does. She's also quite popular, if Mario Kart and Super Mario 3D World are anything to go by. Not to mention, she has a completely unique moveset, so I consider her a more then welcome addition to the roster. Yeah, I would like to see Toad playable at long last, but until then, I'm good with Rosalina. ...And maybe Bowser Jr., if he also gets in.
Lucina: Ho boy, this is going to get messy. I have no problems with Lucina's inclusion, but I will admit, yeah, her inclusion as a playable character seems baffling to me. Apparently, she was meant to be an alternate costume for Marth, but the differences between her and Marth were so much that she got her own character slot... I dunno, I feel like it's a really flimsy justification to include another clone character, even if I personally have nothing against clones and I'm all about the details. I heard that there was originally going to be another character (not from Fire Emblem, just in general) that didn't make the cut, and Lucina was made playable to makes sure not to compromise the roster size. I personally would buy that over the former argument. Still, don't mind her inclusion, but I'd say she'd be the first I'd cut for the next game, even if I do like her.
Greninja: Alright, I want to say right off the bat that Greninja's reveal just perplexed me for days. I thought he was a cool addition, but I just couldn't understand why HE of all Pokémon would be included! So here's what I've come up with, having looked into it a bit more:
Apparently, there was a mandate form Nintendo to include a 6th generation Pokémon, and apparently, Sakurai himself chose Greninja purely based on his looks. Hell, by that point in development, he didn't even have a name yet! That's right, they included a Pokémon character who didn' thave a name and was included just because he looked cool! I mean, sure, he's semi-popular now, but it just feels weird to include him when he wasn't promoted at all in any other Pokémon-related merchandise. And yeah, I can safely say I was more surprised (more like bewildered) to see his inclusion then even the Wii Fit Trainer's!
That being said, I've definitely warmed up to him, and I'm left wondering if he'll be in future installments... Personally, I kind of hope so. Coolness factors can go a long way... Though I would have liked to see Hawlucha instead (especially since now, in the anime, Ash apparently caught a Hawlucha).
SonicMario
Star Spirit
- Thread starter
- #80
Thanks for the feedback Smashgoom ^^ Feel free to also look through what I said about potential newcomers that others have brought up. It's a bit long-winded, but you might like what I said about Ridley in particular for the most part. But anyway, someone requested Krystal earlier. So here she is:
KRYSTAL
Looks like we're getting to a bit of Star Fox today! Krystal is a character that made her debut in the series in Star Fox Adventures. Interesting enough, that game wasn't going to be a Star Fox game at one point in development. And Krystal would of actually been the Main Character of the game, it would of just been called "Dinosaur Planet". And I bet Krystal would have a much better chance at Smash if her game had not been turned into part of the Starfox series. That said, is she completely out of the question just because the ended up being moved into a franchise that's been in the Smash series in the beginning with quite a bit of characters to contend with? With even the two characters that made it into the series other then Fox himself already perhaps being the main competition. I think it all depends if Star Fox is capable of getting a fourth character. Cause if Krystal has to try to beat Falco and/or Wolf for a spot in Smash 4, she has no chance whatsoever simply because they've been playable in Smash Bros. before and Krystal hasn't. I also think Krystal might just be one of those characters (The first one I covered was Issac) that might of missed their chance after Brawl came and passed. However, there is a new Starfox game coming up. And if the franchise could get three characters with a bit of a bumpy history. (The most well-received game of the series still being made as far back as the N64 Era, while Adventures, Assault, and Command have not been universally liked as Star Fox 64 was.) Krystal could beat the odds. The thing is, while Krystal is the obvious fourth Star Fox rep. Krystal herself is a bit of a controversial subject both in and out of the Star Fox franchise. Being how Krystal only appeared in games that are not that well-recieved. Plus she kinda has the reputation of being "furry bait", with people accusing Krystal fans that most of them are the type of furries who find female anthropomorphic animals particularly sexy. Not that really means anything, as arguably the other Star Fox characters in the game plus Sonic I imagine can be just as popular in that sort of way for furries that are female or Homosexual. Nonetheless any hate on Krystal stems from this sort of vitriol towards furries that some people have. And almost any long-winded discussion or thread supporting Krystal is going to get at least one of those kind of people using the furry bait insult as if that's enough reason to say she shouldn't be in Smash Bros. Though there's two reasons in the first place that people want Krystal that actually had some legitimate uses for her. The fact she'd add another female to the cast (Smash 4 is full of newcomer females it seems. Even if some of them are just alts), and a more staff-based moveset. And unfortunately for Krystal fans, it looks like Palutena beat Krystal to the punch with a staff-like weapon of her own. So just like with Issac, not only could it have been possible Krystal's window to getting into Smash Bros. has already closed on her. But now a different character takes what would of made Krystal special amongst the cast. To be fair though, it's not like Palutena's Moveset entirely depends on her staff in the moveset. So if Krystal's Moveset uses her staff much more often, it could still work well. Or perhaps Krystal ends up being a combination of being a semi-clone combination of Palutena and Fox. As for my personal thoughts on Krystal, I think she'd be alright, but I'm not sure she's a necessary inclusion at this point. Her debut game was something I had hard time with because it was much like a Zelda game, and I never know what exactly to do at the beginning of Zelda-style games. But I did play Assault, as much as that seems to have gotten mixed reactions. I personally loved that game, and would even say it's my favorite in the Star Fox series. (Soooo happy it's getting a stage in Smash 4). I kinda gave up pretty quickly on Command, though from what I hear that might have been a good decision anyway. As because there's alternate endings, it's unclear on which one is canon. I think people are just wondering if the Starfox Wii U game is going to tell us which one was, or if it's going to ignore Star Fox Command entirely. But anyway, Krystal has a decent chance. But as I said, it all depends if Star Fox is worthy enough of four characters. Cause I don't think Krystal gets in over either Falco or Wolf at this point.
And because I'm a bit frustrated, I thought I'd let off some steam by talking about one certain newcomer as a bonus even though it wasn't requested. And yes, it has to do with the Roster Leak going around. It's not about Shulk, that's actually a character I looked positively on when I covered him earlier. It's not about Duck Hunt Dog either, that might actually be a clever retro rep potentially. It's not about Bowser Jr., cause he was a legit contender for a Mario Newcomer spot, and it's not about the possible return of Dr. Mario either. All I Have to say about Dr. Mario is pretty much already said when I talked about him the first time around when talking about the Melee characters. I am annoyed that now it's possible that what I called the worst inclusion of the series might actually come back. But I wanna talk about something else that may or may not be just as bad, if not worse of a meritable inclusion as Dr. Mario: Dark Pit
DARK PIT
Where do I start, where do I start... Well, for those not in the know about Dark Pit, he's a character in the newest iteration of the Kid Icarus franchise. He was created when Pit looked in some mirror that's capable of turning your negative feelings into their own being. He is literally a clone of Pit, just with a more Anti-Hero type personality. In other words, Dark Pit may as well be what Shadow the Hedgehog is to the Sonic franchise what he is to Kid Icarus. He pretty much already has negative merit from this already. I just wanna say, I haven't played Uprising but I did see a full let's play. I did mention that when I was talking about Palutena I believe. My gripes with Dark PIt possibly being included is it's like Sakurai has fully gotten rid of his modesty on his games if Dark Pit is included. I was skeptical of Kid Icarus going beyond Pit before Palutena started becoming a lot more likely after the direct, and Palutena at least existed prior to Uprising. But Dark Pit only exists in Uprising, Sakurai would be clearly giving too much love to a franchise he basically adopted by giving them three characters. And even if the franchise did have the merit for three characters, Dark Pit hardly sounds like the best choice. There's probably at least two more characters that would be a better idea: Medusa and Hades. Medusa was the main antagonist of the original Kid Icarus game and had a role (albeit minor) in Uprising as well. There's also Hades who was the main Antagonist of Uprising who's personality has already made him among plenty of Favorite Nintendo Villain lists. Dark Pit is a recurring character in the game, but he doesn't feel that major. He's also at best going to be a Semi-Clone. Honestly, if the leak is true. I have a hard time thinking if Dark Pit is either just as, slightly better, or even worse then Dr. Mario. To Dark Pit's credit he really is a separate character from Pit even if he looks exactly the same. But at the same time, Dr. Mario had existed for years even when Melee was new and as much as I hate to admit it. The fact Dr. Mario was playable at one point in the series does give him some degree of Merit. It may also depend on how Pit and Dr. Mario are done in Smash 4 should they both be in the game. If Dark Pit is actually done quite different from Pit where it's more Lucas or Wolf styled while Dr. Mario remained more like how he was in Melee then definitely Dark Pit would be the better inclusion. But if the vice versa happens where Dr. Mario is made more different from Mario while Dark Pit just seems more like an alternate costume with a different voice disguised as a separate character. Then Dark Pit may become the worst inclusion in the entire series.
And it pains me to say that, cause Smash 4 was doing so well. I had some issues with Rosalina, Lucina, and Greninja but otherwise they were still generally ok. To think that Smash 4 might end up having an inclusion that's even close to being as bad as Dr. Mario and even bringing back Dr. Mario himself just has me just shaking my head in disbelief. I'd actually take Daisy over Dark Pit. Yeah, remember my rant on Daisy? I would rather take Daisy at this point, that's how salty I feel about Dark Pit even being a possibility. Even with both Dr. Mario and Dark Pit, it won't make Smash 4's the worst Newcomer pool as I still feel Melee's is worse because there'd have to be one more inclusion that's as bad as Dr. Mario and Dark Pit and the already great inclusions (Ex: Megaman, Mii Fighters, and Little Mac) plus even if the leak is real there have been people pointing out how that might not be the final roster that could hide someone that could be another great inclusion. That said however, Dr. Mario and Dark Pit being in the game would prevent this from getting any higher then 3rd place in overall Newcomer merit. Like I said in the thread that was a poll of whether we believed the Leak or Not, I said that Dr. Mario and Dark Pit being playable would make a roster with 48 or more characters feel inferior to SSB64's 12-character roster alone regardless of who else is playable. That's just entirely embarrassing. If I can say 3 characters greatly decreased the merit of a 25 character roster, I can say 2 characters do something similar for a 48+ roster. Cause 3 out of 25 makes up 14% of the roster while 2 out of 48 makes up 4%. Even if Dr. Mario and Dark Pit are playable, Smash 4's overall roster merit will still be better then Melee's for me by about 10%. But just that 4% is enough to keep it away from ever having the chance to get above the Original 12 even if Ridley and King K. Rool were confirmed. Cause any multiple imperfection makes a Smash Bros. roster feel inferior as both SSB64 and Brawl were both rosters that were pretty close to perfection with only about 1 or 2 characters that are a little questionable.
Though even if all of this is true, I suppose I'll be able to get over it eventually. And the Custom Movesets to make them more different could soften the blow of either Dr. Mario's return or Dark Pit's inclusion somewhat. And I still suspect that Smash 4 could be the greatest of the Smash games. But don't ever expect Dr. Mario or Dark Pit to grow on me if this turns out true. This isn't a case like what ROB might of been for some when Brawl's roster was revealed (I was fine with ROB myself back then, I was just surprised he was playable when I thought he was just an enemy in Subspace). And if nothing else, I'll have two punching bags. I'm still silently hoping that the leak will turn out fake, but I'm willing to prepare for the worst-case scenario (The 48 being the final roster, no sign of more characters, and the DLC part of the leak is fake) and hope for the best.
KRYSTAL
Looks like we're getting to a bit of Star Fox today! Krystal is a character that made her debut in the series in Star Fox Adventures. Interesting enough, that game wasn't going to be a Star Fox game at one point in development. And Krystal would of actually been the Main Character of the game, it would of just been called "Dinosaur Planet". And I bet Krystal would have a much better chance at Smash if her game had not been turned into part of the Starfox series. That said, is she completely out of the question just because the ended up being moved into a franchise that's been in the Smash series in the beginning with quite a bit of characters to contend with? With even the two characters that made it into the series other then Fox himself already perhaps being the main competition. I think it all depends if Star Fox is capable of getting a fourth character. Cause if Krystal has to try to beat Falco and/or Wolf for a spot in Smash 4, she has no chance whatsoever simply because they've been playable in Smash Bros. before and Krystal hasn't. I also think Krystal might just be one of those characters (The first one I covered was Issac) that might of missed their chance after Brawl came and passed. However, there is a new Starfox game coming up. And if the franchise could get three characters with a bit of a bumpy history. (The most well-received game of the series still being made as far back as the N64 Era, while Adventures, Assault, and Command have not been universally liked as Star Fox 64 was.) Krystal could beat the odds. The thing is, while Krystal is the obvious fourth Star Fox rep. Krystal herself is a bit of a controversial subject both in and out of the Star Fox franchise. Being how Krystal only appeared in games that are not that well-recieved. Plus she kinda has the reputation of being "furry bait", with people accusing Krystal fans that most of them are the type of furries who find female anthropomorphic animals particularly sexy. Not that really means anything, as arguably the other Star Fox characters in the game plus Sonic I imagine can be just as popular in that sort of way for furries that are female or Homosexual. Nonetheless any hate on Krystal stems from this sort of vitriol towards furries that some people have. And almost any long-winded discussion or thread supporting Krystal is going to get at least one of those kind of people using the furry bait insult as if that's enough reason to say she shouldn't be in Smash Bros. Though there's two reasons in the first place that people want Krystal that actually had some legitimate uses for her. The fact she'd add another female to the cast (Smash 4 is full of newcomer females it seems. Even if some of them are just alts), and a more staff-based moveset. And unfortunately for Krystal fans, it looks like Palutena beat Krystal to the punch with a staff-like weapon of her own. So just like with Issac, not only could it have been possible Krystal's window to getting into Smash Bros. has already closed on her. But now a different character takes what would of made Krystal special amongst the cast. To be fair though, it's not like Palutena's Moveset entirely depends on her staff in the moveset. So if Krystal's Moveset uses her staff much more often, it could still work well. Or perhaps Krystal ends up being a combination of being a semi-clone combination of Palutena and Fox. As for my personal thoughts on Krystal, I think she'd be alright, but I'm not sure she's a necessary inclusion at this point. Her debut game was something I had hard time with because it was much like a Zelda game, and I never know what exactly to do at the beginning of Zelda-style games. But I did play Assault, as much as that seems to have gotten mixed reactions. I personally loved that game, and would even say it's my favorite in the Star Fox series. (Soooo happy it's getting a stage in Smash 4). I kinda gave up pretty quickly on Command, though from what I hear that might have been a good decision anyway. As because there's alternate endings, it's unclear on which one is canon. I think people are just wondering if the Starfox Wii U game is going to tell us which one was, or if it's going to ignore Star Fox Command entirely. But anyway, Krystal has a decent chance. But as I said, it all depends if Star Fox is worthy enough of four characters. Cause I don't think Krystal gets in over either Falco or Wolf at this point.
And because I'm a bit frustrated, I thought I'd let off some steam by talking about one certain newcomer as a bonus even though it wasn't requested. And yes, it has to do with the Roster Leak going around. It's not about Shulk, that's actually a character I looked positively on when I covered him earlier. It's not about Duck Hunt Dog either, that might actually be a clever retro rep potentially. It's not about Bowser Jr., cause he was a legit contender for a Mario Newcomer spot, and it's not about the possible return of Dr. Mario either. All I Have to say about Dr. Mario is pretty much already said when I talked about him the first time around when talking about the Melee characters. I am annoyed that now it's possible that what I called the worst inclusion of the series might actually come back. But I wanna talk about something else that may or may not be just as bad, if not worse of a meritable inclusion as Dr. Mario: Dark Pit
DARK PIT
Where do I start, where do I start... Well, for those not in the know about Dark Pit, he's a character in the newest iteration of the Kid Icarus franchise. He was created when Pit looked in some mirror that's capable of turning your negative feelings into their own being. He is literally a clone of Pit, just with a more Anti-Hero type personality. In other words, Dark Pit may as well be what Shadow the Hedgehog is to the Sonic franchise what he is to Kid Icarus. He pretty much already has negative merit from this already. I just wanna say, I haven't played Uprising but I did see a full let's play. I did mention that when I was talking about Palutena I believe. My gripes with Dark PIt possibly being included is it's like Sakurai has fully gotten rid of his modesty on his games if Dark Pit is included. I was skeptical of Kid Icarus going beyond Pit before Palutena started becoming a lot more likely after the direct, and Palutena at least existed prior to Uprising. But Dark Pit only exists in Uprising, Sakurai would be clearly giving too much love to a franchise he basically adopted by giving them three characters. And even if the franchise did have the merit for three characters, Dark Pit hardly sounds like the best choice. There's probably at least two more characters that would be a better idea: Medusa and Hades. Medusa was the main antagonist of the original Kid Icarus game and had a role (albeit minor) in Uprising as well. There's also Hades who was the main Antagonist of Uprising who's personality has already made him among plenty of Favorite Nintendo Villain lists. Dark Pit is a recurring character in the game, but he doesn't feel that major. He's also at best going to be a Semi-Clone. Honestly, if the leak is true. I have a hard time thinking if Dark Pit is either just as, slightly better, or even worse then Dr. Mario. To Dark Pit's credit he really is a separate character from Pit even if he looks exactly the same. But at the same time, Dr. Mario had existed for years even when Melee was new and as much as I hate to admit it. The fact Dr. Mario was playable at one point in the series does give him some degree of Merit. It may also depend on how Pit and Dr. Mario are done in Smash 4 should they both be in the game. If Dark Pit is actually done quite different from Pit where it's more Lucas or Wolf styled while Dr. Mario remained more like how he was in Melee then definitely Dark Pit would be the better inclusion. But if the vice versa happens where Dr. Mario is made more different from Mario while Dark Pit just seems more like an alternate costume with a different voice disguised as a separate character. Then Dark Pit may become the worst inclusion in the entire series.
And it pains me to say that, cause Smash 4 was doing so well. I had some issues with Rosalina, Lucina, and Greninja but otherwise they were still generally ok. To think that Smash 4 might end up having an inclusion that's even close to being as bad as Dr. Mario and even bringing back Dr. Mario himself just has me just shaking my head in disbelief. I'd actually take Daisy over Dark Pit. Yeah, remember my rant on Daisy? I would rather take Daisy at this point, that's how salty I feel about Dark Pit even being a possibility. Even with both Dr. Mario and Dark Pit, it won't make Smash 4's the worst Newcomer pool as I still feel Melee's is worse because there'd have to be one more inclusion that's as bad as Dr. Mario and Dark Pit and the already great inclusions (Ex: Megaman, Mii Fighters, and Little Mac) plus even if the leak is real there have been people pointing out how that might not be the final roster that could hide someone that could be another great inclusion. That said however, Dr. Mario and Dark Pit being in the game would prevent this from getting any higher then 3rd place in overall Newcomer merit. Like I said in the thread that was a poll of whether we believed the Leak or Not, I said that Dr. Mario and Dark Pit being playable would make a roster with 48 or more characters feel inferior to SSB64's 12-character roster alone regardless of who else is playable. That's just entirely embarrassing. If I can say 3 characters greatly decreased the merit of a 25 character roster, I can say 2 characters do something similar for a 48+ roster. Cause 3 out of 25 makes up 14% of the roster while 2 out of 48 makes up 4%. Even if Dr. Mario and Dark Pit are playable, Smash 4's overall roster merit will still be better then Melee's for me by about 10%. But just that 4% is enough to keep it away from ever having the chance to get above the Original 12 even if Ridley and King K. Rool were confirmed. Cause any multiple imperfection makes a Smash Bros. roster feel inferior as both SSB64 and Brawl were both rosters that were pretty close to perfection with only about 1 or 2 characters that are a little questionable.
Though even if all of this is true, I suppose I'll be able to get over it eventually. And the Custom Movesets to make them more different could soften the blow of either Dr. Mario's return or Dark Pit's inclusion somewhat. And I still suspect that Smash 4 could be the greatest of the Smash games. But don't ever expect Dr. Mario or Dark Pit to grow on me if this turns out true. This isn't a case like what ROB might of been for some when Brawl's roster was revealed (I was fine with ROB myself back then, I was just surprised he was playable when I thought he was just an enemy in Subspace). And if nothing else, I'll have two punching bags. I'm still silently hoping that the leak will turn out fake, but I'm willing to prepare for the worst-case scenario (The 48 being the final roster, no sign of more characters, and the DLC part of the leak is fake) and hope for the best.
SonicMario
Star Spirit
- Thread starter
- #82
Tuxedo Ridley said:
I liked Assault as well, I'm just talking generally that the last time a new Star Fox game was well-recieved overall was Star Fox 64. Star Fox 64 3D obviously doesn't count since well, of course it's a remake of Star Fox 64.
GalacticPetey
Donkey Kong
I really see no reason to not have the clones. They play differently enough that I count them as separate characters, but most people just go "hurr durr same especial moves, exactly alike". Watch any experienced players. The way a Fox moves and the way he fights is much different than the way a Falco moves and fights. Dr. Mario just feels better than Mario to me. It's a real shame that people got their main cut. Switching over to Mario is not a good alternative. Most Doc mains had to get a new main when Brawl came out.
Considering how easy Doc is to create and implement, adding him would hardly take any development time. If Brawl wasn't so strapped for time, Doc should have been back.
Considering how easy Doc is to create and implement, adding him would hardly take any development time. If Brawl wasn't so strapped for time, Doc should have been back.
Tyrell Badd
"The hated boss who beats you down..."
Chat Administrator
Retired Forum Mod
Retired Wiki Staff
'Shroom Consultant
- MarioWiki
- Gamefreak75
I'd normally agree with the "there's no reason to not have clones" argument, but remember that there is only so much room on the screen for character portraits for selecting them. Unless they decide to automatically switch to a scrolling one which is unlikely.
I'd say that Dark Pit is still slightly above Dr. Mario for the reason you mentioned, being that Dark Pit is at least his own character while Dr. Mario is literally, well, Mario in a lab coat. That's why I don't want Paper Mario in Smash Bros. He's literally Mario...as paper...Might as well ask for Yarn Kirby while we're at it. That said, I'm not opposed to a Paper Mario newcomer as long as its not one of the main four heroes that we have characters of. The problem is, I wouldn't know who they would use. Using a one-off character like Grodus or Lord Crump or someone else would be ridiculous, but PM doesn't really have any recurring characters besides the sages (Merlon, Merluvlee, etc). I'd take Merlon over Paper Mario, honestly.
As much as I don't want to admit it, if they want to use a rep from the Paper Mario/Mario and Luigi/RPG series, I'd go with Fawful. He at least has the potential for a unique moveset, he ''was'' a recurring character in the series, and he's a fan favorite by some.
Also, since I know neither of them have any chance of being in, can you do either Magolor of Prince Fluff? Whichever one you have more knowledge of is probably the best choice.
I'd say that Dark Pit is still slightly above Dr. Mario for the reason you mentioned, being that Dark Pit is at least his own character while Dr. Mario is literally, well, Mario in a lab coat. That's why I don't want Paper Mario in Smash Bros. He's literally Mario...as paper...Might as well ask for Yarn Kirby while we're at it. That said, I'm not opposed to a Paper Mario newcomer as long as its not one of the main four heroes that we have characters of. The problem is, I wouldn't know who they would use. Using a one-off character like Grodus or Lord Crump or someone else would be ridiculous, but PM doesn't really have any recurring characters besides the sages (Merlon, Merluvlee, etc). I'd take Merlon over Paper Mario, honestly.
As much as I don't want to admit it, if they want to use a rep from the Paper Mario/Mario and Luigi/RPG series, I'd go with Fawful. He at least has the potential for a unique moveset, he ''was'' a recurring character in the series, and he's a fan favorite by some.
Also, since I know neither of them have any chance of being in, can you do either Magolor of Prince Fluff? Whichever one you have more knowledge of is probably the best choice.
SonicMario
Star Spirit
- Thread starter
- #85
GalacticPetey said:
I only really dislike Dr. Mario (And potentially Dark Pit) because of how they really shouldn't be there on the principle that not only are their moves are quite similar to who they're based off from but they also look exactly like the character they're clones of in either a costume change (Dr. Mario) or an outright Recolor (Dark Pit). It feels just as silly if Wario was turned into two separate characters simply because of the Plumber and Biker costumes. Or if the Male and Female Wii Fit Trainers, the Male and Female Villagers, and the Male and Female Robin were seperate characters as well. I just don't understand Sakurai's logic to make Dr. Mario and Dark Pit their own characters when there are more extreme model changes that even include new voices for other characters that are alts for the characters.
I understand that there are people that chose to main Dr. Mario and were disappointed by the absence in Brawl. But I do feel even most of the Doc mains understand that Dr. Mario isn't a well-favored inclusion. If it weren't for the leak, most Doc mains would be expecting that Dr. Mario wasn't going to be back for Smash 4 and probably more accepting of it.
His logic is that if there's a difference, even a minor one, it deserves a slot.
Dr. Mario at least has some difference. With the genderswapped versions, that's all they are. Dr. Mario shoots pills and is strongerand he has a reflector thingy. If Dr. Mario was a costume of Mario, we'd have a doctor throwing fireballs, which isn't covered by my insurance would look really weird, as Sakurai noted.
As for Dark Pit, I never played KI:U, so idk.
Dr. Mario at least has some difference. With the genderswapped versions, that's all they are. Dr. Mario shoots pills and is stronger
As for Dark Pit, I never played KI:U, so idk.
SonicMario
Star Spirit
- Thread starter
- #90
BOWSER JR. (and the Koopalings?)
Well, with the new leak. I suppose I should have suspected I'd be requested to do some of the newcomers revealed. And I'm definitely ok with that when I already got my new least favorite newcomer of Smash 4 out of the way already. Greninja fans can now rest a little more easy with me now, as my least favorite Newcomer of Smash 4 has changed from Greninja to Dark Pit by far. But anyway on Bowser Jr., I'm actually pleasantly surprised with his inclusion. I thought that maybe Rosalina had killed the chances of another Mario character. But I'm happy to be wrong. And Bowser Jr. was deemed one of the 4 most likely Mario Newcomers early on in speculation (The others were Toad, Paper Mario, and Waluigi). And there's definitely good reason for it, cause Bowser Jr. has been a recurring character since Super Mario Sunshine and has made frequent appearances as a Mini-Boss in many more games. Many were expecting he'd bring his Paintbrush into battle, but it seems he'll be taking in the Clown Car which is really clever and is just another of Sakurai's genius ideas as the Clown Car itself may as well have more merit then Bowser Jr. himself being an essential boss vehicle since Super Mario World. Which speaking of which, there's been buzz about how Bowser Jr. may not be alone and the Koopalings are alts. If true, that's quite interesting because that technically might mean that the Koopa Clown Car is the true Playable because that generally remains the same while the Driver changes. But boy, that means 7 extra animations because all the Koopalings have distinct design differences from Bowser Jr. and possibly 7 different voice clip sets as well. Is there also different announcer calls considering each one would also have to have their name? (In the leak you see Bowser Jr.'s name on the bottom screen, if they wanted to make things easier they could of done something like "Koopaling" and it would seem a little confusing if they called the Koopaling alts Bowser Jr., some part of me makes me think the Koopaling alts is just speculation because it doesn't make a lot of sense from that end) While of course all of Bowser's children would have all the same weight and attack power cause the weight is really based on the Koopa Clown Car as opposed to the rider. Some might take this as technically being the Mario series having a total of 14 distinct characters cause it's more extreme of a way of including an alt then the male and female alts of Wii Fit Trainer, the Villager, and Robin. It's definitely strange, but at the same it's a bit intriguing. But let's get to the important stuff, do Bowser Jr and/or the Koopalings have the merit for Smash? Well each of the 7 Koopalings don't if you're thinking their own playable spots. But putting them all together in one slot might potentially be a great idea. Because dislike Bowser Jr but like the Koopalings? Then pick your favorite Koopaling to play as. Dislike the Koopalings but like Bowser Jr.? Just use Bowser Jr. then. All 8 of them have existed for a decent amount of times, the Koopalings being older being the bosses of the many worlds in Super Mario World and making frequent appearances in the New Super Mario Bros. series. And as I said Bowser Jr. has made frequent appearances since his debut in Super Mario Sunshine that has given him a nice amount of popularity and relevance to the Mario series. I honestly like Bowser Jr. being in because I suppose if we couldn't get Toad in there, I always thought Bowser Jr. was next in-line. And I'm not even upset that the Koopalings may have been brought with him, at least it's some sort of classic Mario representation that kinda makes up for Toad not making it in. I do feel like the Koopa Clown Car and/or the Koopalings make this pretty much mainly a Super Mario World tribute, which was the first video game I ever played. Which you can imagine kinda makes it all the more special for me. It really is a bit of a pleasant surprise, and I'm interesting how he'll play out overall.
MACH RIDER
I don't know a lot about Mach Rider so this might be a little short. Though I have to say he's not exactly confirmed really. The part that mentions him comes from a rather untrustworthy source as he made up the DLC to mess with people and he was also the one who made the Palutena Leak (Which while Palutena did end up playable, the models were different so the leak itself was fake but Palutena just happened to get in anyway). All I can really say is I hear he's one of Sakurai's favorite retro characters, but he was never included because he couldn't find a way to properly make him a fighter (Which is strange considering Sakurai has done wonders with less then what Mach Rider might be capable of) and maybe Captain Falcon kinda already takes Mach Rider's niche of being a muscled driver. But maybe if somehow Mach Rider does turn out to be some secret character, Sakurai might of finally figured out how to include a favorite of his
DUCK HUNT DOG & DUCKS
This definitely came as a surprise seeing on the roster. I always found this dog to be a character that people just put on troll rosters or just supported as passing curiosities even of they didn't really believe it could actually happen. But it seems that they're actually getting in this time as legitimate characters. It definitely falls in line with Sakurai's past Retro inclusions so it's not that farfetched when you really think about it. And yes the characters do represent something. Like ROB, they potentially count as representation of a peripheral called the NES Zapper. A peripheral for the NES where you held a gun to the TV and tried to shoot the ducks. We have yet to see what exactly they do, though it's a bit weird to see the Duck Hunt Dog actually working with the ducks to fight. Considering you'd think they hate each other. The Dog is always happy to hold up a dead duck when you've successfully shot one. I'm quite interested in how they're done, and if the Ice Climbers truly are gone for Smash 4. At least we have another way of having a Retro Duo of some sort even if it's not the same. Duck Hunt Dog does however have basically the perfect taunt, the laugh that have made gamers want to punch him in the face. Which speaking of which might be another good thing about the inclusion. You can actually do that with your favorite Nintendo characters, or even do that yourself through the use of the Mii Fighters. And we also have at least one quadruped again with Ivysaur pretty much gone. Just quite a bit of intriguing things about this inclusion, I actually can't wait to know more
BABY ROSALINA
Baby Rosalisa is the baby form of newcomer Rosa- WAIT what the hell am I doing. Uh uh, this ain't happening. You can just forge-
PINK GOLD PEACH
Seriously?
1. Mega Man
2. Mii Fighters
3. Little Mac
4. Pac-Man
5. Bowser Jr.
6. Duck Hunt Dog
7. Villager
8. Shulk
9. Robin
10. Palutena
11. Wii Fit Trainer
12. Rosalina
13. Lucina
14. Greninja
15. Dark Pit
This is my new ranking from best to worst of the Smash 4 newcomers. As you can see, I'm real positive on the newcomers revealed in the leak. With most of them of them making it in the Top 10 of Smash 4. The only exception is Dark Pit which I think is no contest, the worst Newcomer of Smash 4. Greninja even with how new he is comparatively and despite being not as old as Dark Pit is far better of an inclusion simply for actually bringing something new as well as my only real complaints being just how too new he was. Though I have to say the bottom three are in some ways a bit of a different take on the bottom three of Melee but perhaps done slightly better. Lucina is a Marth clone much like Roy was, but her game was released a little while before Smash 4 comes out and she was a fairly popular character. Greninja while not a clone like Pichu is, it is the new generation rep but is of course done better because it's an actual new pokemon with their own moveset. And Dark Pit looks pretty much like a pallet swap/alternate costume of Pit similar to Dr. Mario, though arguably Dark Pit is better because at least Dark Pit is actually a separate character in his own right. Which doesn't exactly change the unfairness of having Dark Link as an Alt, and Dark Samus an Assist Trophy but nonetheless from a character standpoint Dark Pit isn't just Pit in a different costume like Dr. Mario pretty much is. So while it seems like it kinda repeated the same mistakes, it kinda varies. Between Lucina and Roy it's a moderate improvement for having an actually established and popular character. Between Greninja and Pichu is a huge gap just for the fact Greninja is not a clone. And between Dark Pit and Dr. Mario it's actually close on which one is worse, because while Dark Pit is his own separate character he's also representing only one game that came out not that long ago while Dr. Mario has been around a long time. I think it's quite possible that there will be debate on just what is the worser inclusion of the series between Dark Pit and Dr. Mario because they have different types of cons to them. For the most part it seems like they've learned their lesson from Roy, Pichu, and Dr. Mario but they did do a few things that kinda repeat the mistakes as well, namely returning Dr. Mario himself. It just makes an interesting comparison. But it's all part of how Smash 4's roster choices are still far better overall then Melee's overall even if it doesn't reach the near perfection of SSB64 or Brawl's characters.
Well, with the new leak. I suppose I should have suspected I'd be requested to do some of the newcomers revealed. And I'm definitely ok with that when I already got my new least favorite newcomer of Smash 4 out of the way already. Greninja fans can now rest a little more easy with me now, as my least favorite Newcomer of Smash 4 has changed from Greninja to Dark Pit by far. But anyway on Bowser Jr., I'm actually pleasantly surprised with his inclusion. I thought that maybe Rosalina had killed the chances of another Mario character. But I'm happy to be wrong. And Bowser Jr. was deemed one of the 4 most likely Mario Newcomers early on in speculation (The others were Toad, Paper Mario, and Waluigi). And there's definitely good reason for it, cause Bowser Jr. has been a recurring character since Super Mario Sunshine and has made frequent appearances as a Mini-Boss in many more games. Many were expecting he'd bring his Paintbrush into battle, but it seems he'll be taking in the Clown Car which is really clever and is just another of Sakurai's genius ideas as the Clown Car itself may as well have more merit then Bowser Jr. himself being an essential boss vehicle since Super Mario World. Which speaking of which, there's been buzz about how Bowser Jr. may not be alone and the Koopalings are alts. If true, that's quite interesting because that technically might mean that the Koopa Clown Car is the true Playable because that generally remains the same while the Driver changes. But boy, that means 7 extra animations because all the Koopalings have distinct design differences from Bowser Jr. and possibly 7 different voice clip sets as well. Is there also different announcer calls considering each one would also have to have their name? (In the leak you see Bowser Jr.'s name on the bottom screen, if they wanted to make things easier they could of done something like "Koopaling" and it would seem a little confusing if they called the Koopaling alts Bowser Jr., some part of me makes me think the Koopaling alts is just speculation because it doesn't make a lot of sense from that end) While of course all of Bowser's children would have all the same weight and attack power cause the weight is really based on the Koopa Clown Car as opposed to the rider. Some might take this as technically being the Mario series having a total of 14 distinct characters cause it's more extreme of a way of including an alt then the male and female alts of Wii Fit Trainer, the Villager, and Robin. It's definitely strange, but at the same it's a bit intriguing. But let's get to the important stuff, do Bowser Jr and/or the Koopalings have the merit for Smash? Well each of the 7 Koopalings don't if you're thinking their own playable spots. But putting them all together in one slot might potentially be a great idea. Because dislike Bowser Jr but like the Koopalings? Then pick your favorite Koopaling to play as. Dislike the Koopalings but like Bowser Jr.? Just use Bowser Jr. then. All 8 of them have existed for a decent amount of times, the Koopalings being older being the bosses of the many worlds in Super Mario World and making frequent appearances in the New Super Mario Bros. series. And as I said Bowser Jr. has made frequent appearances since his debut in Super Mario Sunshine that has given him a nice amount of popularity and relevance to the Mario series. I honestly like Bowser Jr. being in because I suppose if we couldn't get Toad in there, I always thought Bowser Jr. was next in-line. And I'm not even upset that the Koopalings may have been brought with him, at least it's some sort of classic Mario representation that kinda makes up for Toad not making it in. I do feel like the Koopa Clown Car and/or the Koopalings make this pretty much mainly a Super Mario World tribute, which was the first video game I ever played. Which you can imagine kinda makes it all the more special for me. It really is a bit of a pleasant surprise, and I'm interesting how he'll play out overall.
MACH RIDER
I don't know a lot about Mach Rider so this might be a little short. Though I have to say he's not exactly confirmed really. The part that mentions him comes from a rather untrustworthy source as he made up the DLC to mess with people and he was also the one who made the Palutena Leak (Which while Palutena did end up playable, the models were different so the leak itself was fake but Palutena just happened to get in anyway). All I can really say is I hear he's one of Sakurai's favorite retro characters, but he was never included because he couldn't find a way to properly make him a fighter (Which is strange considering Sakurai has done wonders with less then what Mach Rider might be capable of) and maybe Captain Falcon kinda already takes Mach Rider's niche of being a muscled driver. But maybe if somehow Mach Rider does turn out to be some secret character, Sakurai might of finally figured out how to include a favorite of his
DUCK HUNT DOG & DUCKS
This definitely came as a surprise seeing on the roster. I always found this dog to be a character that people just put on troll rosters or just supported as passing curiosities even of they didn't really believe it could actually happen. But it seems that they're actually getting in this time as legitimate characters. It definitely falls in line with Sakurai's past Retro inclusions so it's not that farfetched when you really think about it. And yes the characters do represent something. Like ROB, they potentially count as representation of a peripheral called the NES Zapper. A peripheral for the NES where you held a gun to the TV and tried to shoot the ducks. We have yet to see what exactly they do, though it's a bit weird to see the Duck Hunt Dog actually working with the ducks to fight. Considering you'd think they hate each other. The Dog is always happy to hold up a dead duck when you've successfully shot one. I'm quite interested in how they're done, and if the Ice Climbers truly are gone for Smash 4. At least we have another way of having a Retro Duo of some sort even if it's not the same. Duck Hunt Dog does however have basically the perfect taunt, the laugh that have made gamers want to punch him in the face. Which speaking of which might be another good thing about the inclusion. You can actually do that with your favorite Nintendo characters, or even do that yourself through the use of the Mii Fighters. And we also have at least one quadruped again with Ivysaur pretty much gone. Just quite a bit of intriguing things about this inclusion, I actually can't wait to know more
BABY ROSALINA
Baby Rosalisa is the baby form of newcomer Rosa- WAIT what the hell am I doing. Uh uh, this ain't happening. You can just forge-
PINK GOLD PEACH
Seriously?
1. Mega Man
2. Mii Fighters
3. Little Mac
4. Pac-Man
5. Bowser Jr.
6. Duck Hunt Dog
7. Villager
8. Shulk
9. Robin
10. Palutena
11. Wii Fit Trainer
12. Rosalina
13. Lucina
14. Greninja
15. Dark Pit
This is my new ranking from best to worst of the Smash 4 newcomers. As you can see, I'm real positive on the newcomers revealed in the leak. With most of them of them making it in the Top 10 of Smash 4. The only exception is Dark Pit which I think is no contest, the worst Newcomer of Smash 4. Greninja even with how new he is comparatively and despite being not as old as Dark Pit is far better of an inclusion simply for actually bringing something new as well as my only real complaints being just how too new he was. Though I have to say the bottom three are in some ways a bit of a different take on the bottom three of Melee but perhaps done slightly better. Lucina is a Marth clone much like Roy was, but her game was released a little while before Smash 4 comes out and she was a fairly popular character. Greninja while not a clone like Pichu is, it is the new generation rep but is of course done better because it's an actual new pokemon with their own moveset. And Dark Pit looks pretty much like a pallet swap/alternate costume of Pit similar to Dr. Mario, though arguably Dark Pit is better because at least Dark Pit is actually a separate character in his own right. Which doesn't exactly change the unfairness of having Dark Link as an Alt, and Dark Samus an Assist Trophy but nonetheless from a character standpoint Dark Pit isn't just Pit in a different costume like Dr. Mario pretty much is. So while it seems like it kinda repeated the same mistakes, it kinda varies. Between Lucina and Roy it's a moderate improvement for having an actually established and popular character. Between Greninja and Pichu is a huge gap just for the fact Greninja is not a clone. And between Dark Pit and Dr. Mario it's actually close on which one is worse, because while Dark Pit is his own separate character he's also representing only one game that came out not that long ago while Dr. Mario has been around a long time. I think it's quite possible that there will be debate on just what is the worser inclusion of the series between Dark Pit and Dr. Mario because they have different types of cons to them. For the most part it seems like they've learned their lesson from Roy, Pichu, and Dr. Mario but they did do a few things that kinda repeat the mistakes as well, namely returning Dr. Mario himself. It just makes an interesting comparison. But it's all part of how Smash 4's roster choices are still far better overall then Melee's overall even if it doesn't reach the near perfection of SSB64 or Brawl's characters.
SonicMario
Star Spirit
- Thread starter
- #91
I feel like reviving this thread to have something to do every now and then.
So... Here's a few things I'll do on request
- Post-Smash 4 Merit (Because yes, having actually played as the characters does update merit)
This is for any character in Smash 4, regardless if they're Veterans or Newcomers. I already did a thing on each of the Newcomers (And the at the time unconfirmed veterans early on. But Veterans that were long confirmed even at the very beginning like any of the Original 8 Starters are now open for something to cover if you so wish) before the game released, but if you'd like to give my thoughts on a character after I've had a total of at least four months of playing every character at least once on both versions of the game.
- Early Smash 5 Newcomer Merit for the next game (Maybe even Smash 4 DLC, but we're gonna need proof there's more then Mewtwo at this point)
I know it's probably too early to even do stuff like this, but in case some of you want to ask how I feel about certain character's chances keeping the future of Smash Bros. in mind. Before anyone says that Smash 4 might be the last one, we had the same story with Brawl at one point. And I think with or without Sakurai, Nintendo will find a way to continue the Smash series one way or another. This is also includes making a new statement on characters I've already talked about. So if you want me to talk over again on characters I covered already feel free to ask.
So... Here's a few things I'll do on request
- Post-Smash 4 Merit (Because yes, having actually played as the characters does update merit)
This is for any character in Smash 4, regardless if they're Veterans or Newcomers. I already did a thing on each of the Newcomers (And the at the time unconfirmed veterans early on. But Veterans that were long confirmed even at the very beginning like any of the Original 8 Starters are now open for something to cover if you so wish) before the game released, but if you'd like to give my thoughts on a character after I've had a total of at least four months of playing every character at least once on both versions of the game.
- Early Smash 5 Newcomer Merit for the next game (Maybe even Smash 4 DLC, but we're gonna need proof there's more then Mewtwo at this point)
I know it's probably too early to even do stuff like this, but in case some of you want to ask how I feel about certain character's chances keeping the future of Smash Bros. in mind. Before anyone says that Smash 4 might be the last one, we had the same story with Brawl at one point. And I think with or without Sakurai, Nintendo will find a way to continue the Smash series one way or another. This is also includes making a new statement on characters I've already talked about. So if you want me to talk over again on characters I covered already feel free to ask.
- Pronouns
- she/her
- MarioWiki
- Mario
Appearance-wise, you could argue that Dark Pit can work as a mere recolor since he's just a clone of Pit and should be treated as one, but that would be offensive for identical twins.
SonicMario
Star Spirit
- Thread starter
- #95
Magikrazy said:
Yeah... no way. Lucina is the only one of the three VERY clone-ish (She is put next to Dr. Mario and Dark Pit after all) spots I'm ok with.
Cause 1. Lucina is fairly popular within the Fire Emblem fanbase, 2. Her game had been released 2 years prior to Smash, long enough for her to be recognizable (Unlike Greninja and especially Roy) and 3. She actually does have a solid difference for Marth.
Consider someone who doesn't play as Marth very often, or even just new to Smash in General. They want to use Marth effectively but they have trouble trying to connect with his Tipper based combat. That's where Lucina comes in, she's like the Marth for Newbies since no matter where you hit opponents it does the same damage and knockback even if it's of course of much lower effectiveness of getting Marth's tippers just right. Until a person starts to learn the proper spacing for Marth's tippers. Lucina may serve as someone they can still competantly play as because they don't have to rely as much on Tippers. Getting good at Marth will eventually make Lucina less useful, as a good Marth will triumph more often then a good Lucina thanks to the Tipper mechanic. But for those people that just can't land those tippers, Lucina could still be used if they just like the Marth playstyle.
As for Dark Pit, you can play as Pit and him essentially the same with hardly a difference. And from I last heard, any small amount of differences there are make Pit the better choice of the two anyway. Dark Pit isn't Pit for Newbies, nor is he Pit for Experts. He's 99% designed the same way as Pit and more clonish then any clone in the entire series. And would have been far more tolerable as an alt ala Alph for Olimar or the Koopalings for Bowser Junior.
Also remember, I'm not that mad about Greninja. If my bottom 5 Smash 4 Newcomer list was in amount of greater then's. It'd go like this:
Wii Fit Trainer > Rosalina >> Lucina > Greninja >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Dark Pit
Lumastar
Stay off this text, jerks! He has personal issues.
The only reason that Dark Pit is a separate character (other than bias) is his Final Smash. Sakurai just couldn't see his creation misrepresented (just like Ganon, right?) by having a Final Smash based on the Three Sacred Treasures, so he made him a clone of Pit and gave him a Light Arrow clone for his Final Smash. Good job, Sakurai! Good job!
SonicMario
Star Spirit
- Thread starter
- #98
Yeah if Dark Pit was made to be like how Dr. Mario is by making him basically an expy for an older version of Mario like how Dr. Mario can be seen as Melee Mario back in (Albeit of course still slightly slower and stronger), he'd be a bit more tolerable.
Even then though, my thoughts on him as a character (I've seen a Let's Play of Uprising. While I don't hate him that much in the actual game he's from he just gives me eerily similar vibes to what I get from Shadow the Hedgehog. That's not a good thing BTW), Kid Icarus's over representation (I once thought even Palutena was a bit much, but once I came to terms with how obvious it was she was going to be in the game after the first Smash Bros. direct. I decided that Palutena should be the only new Kid Icarus character addition for Smash 4 at least), and even if Kid Icarus did earn a 3rd spot. He is far from the most deserving (Medusa and/or Hades would be far better) would still stand even if he was that way.
Even then though, my thoughts on him as a character (I've seen a Let's Play of Uprising. While I don't hate him that much in the actual game he's from he just gives me eerily similar vibes to what I get from Shadow the Hedgehog. That's not a good thing BTW), Kid Icarus's over representation (I once thought even Palutena was a bit much, but once I came to terms with how obvious it was she was going to be in the game after the first Smash Bros. direct. I decided that Palutena should be the only new Kid Icarus character addition for Smash 4 at least), and even if Kid Icarus did earn a 3rd spot. He is far from the most deserving (Medusa and/or Hades would be far better) would still stand even if he was that way.
Revin
Ace Captain
- MarioWiki
- Reverse Input
honestly i think that merit had nothing to do with the additions of the clones. the only reason they're all seperate was because they were gonna be skins but sakurai decided to make some slight changes to them, and he decided to put them in their own slots because of that
sakurai didnt factor them in with his original roster which i suspect is when he would have factored in merits, he only added them later in development
sakurai didnt factor them in with his original roster which i suspect is when he would have factored in merits, he only added them later in development
SonicMario
Star Spirit
- Thread starter
- #100
Hanayo Koizumi said:
Yeah, I know. But I really do feel that a Smash Bros. roster should be held in high regard for ther merit of it's characters just because you get the feeling that the vast majority of characters that get playable deserve it so because of their relevence to Nintendo from legendary games and/or unique parts of Nintendo's history of long ago or even recent successes (Or in the case of Third Parties. Both good relation with Nintendo and a legendary status in Gaming History). And even the clones shouldn't be excused from just because they were added to just pad the roster a little more. Because I could tell you quite a few characters who could both be clone-ish but still feel like they deserve a spot in Smash. An example of a good one that is still Playable would be Falco, and one that hasn't been chosen would be something like Dixie Kong. All I'm saying, there is such thing as good Roster Padding (See Brawl's selection of Semi-Clones). Meanwhile, stuff like the bottom 3 of Melee and Dark Pit is bad Roster Padding
Also trust me in saying there are so, so, SO many choices that would both fit as clones that I would take over Dark Pit and Dr. Mario Even if I would still heavily dislike their inclusion if neither Doc or Pittoo were in the roster. An example of this would be Daisy. I ranted about how much I'd dislike her inclusion earlier in this thread. But I'd take her in Smash over Dark Pit any given day.