Mario & Luigi: Paper Jam

This game is so freaking awesome. I've already beaten the final boss and it was EPIC!

I was a bit over levelled for some of the boss fights, as Mario, Luigi and Paper Mario were level 40 when facing against the final boss when he was only level 38.

But that phase 2 music though... Wow, just... Wow. So epic and awesome! A masterpiece that has actually taken the number 1 spot from In the Final which reigned supreme for a couple of years!
 
Ok, an interesting interview came out:

http://nintendoeverything.com/mario-luigi-paper-jam-devs-on-bringing-in-paper-mario-dash-mechanic-more/

It was pretty much AlphaDream who wanted to have Paper Mario in the game.
 
Chiaki Nanami said:
I've played this game some more, and I think I've properly localised my main issue of this game. It's just good. It's that. Just good. It only meets up to my expectations that I can expect from a Mario series RPG. That's all it does. Superstar Saga managed to exceed my expectations. So did Bowser's Inside Story by virtue of making Bowser a protagonist. This game? This game just meets my expectations. The environments change predictably. The forest doesn't have poisonous water, which is actually the first thing that surprises me. The minigames are there. They're definitely there and they're enjoyable to play. There's nothing groundbreaking about it — they're just there. The only deviation from the norm in this series is how Paper Mario fights in battles, but even that feels like battling in the Dream world as Mario in Dream Team Bros. at times. Luckily this game isn't Bowser's Inside Story 2 like Dream Team Bros., however.
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This sums up my problem with the Mario games recently, and why I haven't really bought many of them. I've been asking around if this game is good, and people say yes, but no one seemed to be going crazy over it. Nintendo knows perfectly well how to make a good game, but they've stopped putting effort into making, well, great games. I can't get worked up about a game that's just going to be another "good" game and one I'll forget about quickly.
 
Nabber said:
Chiaki Nanami said:
I've played this game some more, and I think I've properly localised my main issue of this game. It's just good. It's that. Just good. It only meets up to my expectations that I can expect from a Mario series RPG. That's all it does. Superstar Saga managed to exceed my expectations. So did Bowser's Inside Story by virtue of making Bowser a protagonist. This game? This game just meets my expectations. The environments change predictably. The forest doesn't have poisonous water, which is actually the first thing that surprises me. The minigames are there. They're definitely there and they're enjoyable to play. There's nothing groundbreaking about it — they're just there. The only deviation from the norm in this series is how Paper Mario fights in battles, but even that feels like battling in the Dream world as Mario in Dream Team Bros. at times. Luckily this game isn't Bowser's Inside Story 2 like Dream Team Bros., however.
Click to expand...
This sums up my problem with the Mario games recently, and why I haven't really bought many of them. I've been asking around if this game is good, and people say yes, but no one seemed to be going crazy over it. Nintendo knows perfectly well how to make a good game, but they've stopped putting effort into making, well, great games. I can't get worked up about a game that's just going to be another "good" game and one I'll forget about quickly.
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Well, I don't know about you, but I didn't have particularly high expectations for this game until maybe when it was revealed that the Koopalings talk in this game, because the early marketing material showed the very same characters without particular characters from both series, the very same settings, mini-games based only about finding the very same Paper Toads and, of course, the two Bowsers as main villains kidnapping the two Peaches. Plus some paper universe elements in the Mario & Luigi world, but I don't think this late aspect was really fleshed out.
After all, this is a Mario RPG that doesn't introduce new characters to the franchise and whose settings are essentially the same seen in many other Super Mario games. It's already incredible that this is a good game.
 
I don't hold the rpgs in super high regard so the game is fine to me.
 
Nabber said:
Chiaki Nanami said:
I've played this game some more, and I think I've properly localised my main issue of this game. It's just good. It's that. Just good. It only meets up to my expectations that I can expect from a Mario series RPG. That's all it does. Superstar Saga managed to exceed my expectations. So did Bowser's Inside Story by virtue of making Bowser a protagonist. This game? This game just meets my expectations. The environments change predictably. The forest doesn't have poisonous water, which is actually the first thing that surprises me. The minigames are there. They're definitely there and they're enjoyable to play. There's nothing groundbreaking about it — they're just there. The only deviation from the norm in this series is how Paper Mario fights in battles, but even that feels like battling in the Dream world as Mario in Dream Team Bros. at times. Luckily this game isn't Bowser's Inside Story 2 like Dream Team Bros., however.
Click to expand...
This sums up my problem with the Mario games recently, and why I haven't really bought many of them. I've been asking around if this game is good, and people say yes, but no one seemed to be going crazy over it. Nintendo knows perfectly well how to make a good game, but they've stopped putting effort into making, well, great games. I can't get worked up about a game that's just going to be another "good" game and one I'll forget about quickly.
Click to expand...
That's an issue with Mario games in general: they're just way too safe. Or, they turn out to have half-baked crap or disappointing rosters. I don't know if this is supposed to be a result of Nintendo's struggles nowadays, but we really need to see a return to form, not this "okay" stuff.
 
I figured out how to get the Wellington Boots in Paper Jam:

00040-400x430.png


Just one catch. It's ridiculously complicated, and mostly luck based. As I mention here:

https://gamingreinvented.com/news/nintendo3dsnews/the-quest-to-get-wellington-boots-in-mario-luigi-paper-jam/

The answer? Counter a certain attack by Shiny Paper Broozers in Neo Bowser Castle, which might have about a 1% chance of dropping the item. How anyone was meant to figure this out is just beyond me...
 
Dr. Mario said:
That's an issue with Mario games in general: they're just way too safe. Or, they turn out to have half-baked crap or disappointing rosters. I don't know if this is supposed to be a result of Nintendo's struggles nowadays, but we really need to see a return to form, not this "okay" stuff.
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But where would be returning to? This is something I've seen a lot with Sonic fans ("sonic adventure (2) was the last good sonic game" etc, etc), but a lot of people tend to only remember the good moments while overlooking the whole lots of bad (i.e. SA and SA2 are clunky, glitchy messes). There are very few games in the Mario series that I'd praise to no end: Super Mario Galaxy easily has some of the most amazing moments in any Mario game, but the Prankster Comets are a lazy attempt at padding and there's a lot of repetition in its missions; Superstar Saga is easily one of my favorite games, with amazing visuals and music, but its combat is too simplistic and its plot is nonsense; I can easily see what Super Mario 64 did right in its art direction, creative levels, and general sense of adventure, but it's repetitive beyond belief and its controls suck; and so on and so forth. I wouldn't call these games bad by any stretch of the imagination (except maybe SM64, it did not age well), but the old games aren't holy grails and I always get frustrated whenever someone calls them that. Personally, Super Mario 3D World is easily a return to form, with a fantastic art direction, a memorable soundtrack, new and interesting power-ups, new and unique levels that still feel like a part of the series, a lot of stage mechanics that do their best to experiment, and more, but it still suffers from the repetition that plagues a lot of the series. I'm not going to say that there's never been any iterative games recently, such as New Super Mario Bros. and New Super Mario Bros. 2, but isn't that exactly what Nintendo did with Super Mario Bros. and The Lost Levels over twenty years ago? My main point is that if you keep trying to romanticize the past and complaining about how the new games never live up to the nostalgia, you'll never get what you want.
 
Well, the characters were better in the older games. Why not return to adding new characters, places, storylines and ideas while keeping the design lessons learned from newer games in mind?

There's no reason Super Mario 3D World style level design has to be used in mostly soulless games.
 
CM30 said:
Well, the characters were better in the older games. Why not return to adding new characters, places, storylines and ideas while keeping the design lessons learned from newer games in mind?

There's no reason Super Mario 3D World style level design has to be used in mostly soulless games.
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The series isn't really known for its characters anyways, but the platforms haven't been interested in doing much beyond "princess there save princess". That's literally what Super Mario Bros was about as well as Super Mario World, and that's exactly what 3D World does (3D World has a lot more in common with the 2D platformers than the 3D platformers). No, the exact same Toad repeating the exact same line seven times does not count as a character, nor does a green Yoshi saying a couple of lines at the start of the game. Sunshine was probably the closest to actual development, but from that, we got Bowser Jr., so your mileage may vary. Also, two questions: did you mean to say "new characters" as well as "new games", because that seems contradictory, and what exactly do you mean by "soulless" games?
 
oh this argument again.

basically ill sum it up for you time turner

basically mario rpg fans think the mario rpgs are the character personalities and development of legends and anything else from any other mario genre is just soulless.

In short many mario rpg fans are simply butthurt that the mario rpg series isnt as popular or as represented as the platformers, despite them being meager spin-offs.

Sure i like the first two paper mario games, but you will never see me say the other mario games are soulless, because i have better things to play and do then whine about lack of story focus in platformers where story or personality focus wasnt there to begin with.
 
Time Turner said:
Dr. Mario said:
That's an issue with Mario games in general: they're just way too safe. Or, they turn out to have half-baked crap or disappointing rosters. I don't know if this is supposed to be a result of Nintendo's struggles nowadays, but we really need to see a return to form, not this "okay" stuff.
Click to expand...
But where would be returning to? This is something I've seen a lot with Sonic fans ("sonic adventure (2) was the last good sonic game" etc, etc), but a lot of people tend to only remember the good moments while overlooking the whole lots of bad (i.e. SA and SA2 are clunky, glitchy messes). There are very few games in the Mario series that I'd praise to no end: Super Mario Galaxy easily has some of the most amazing moments in any Mario game, but the Prankster Comets are a lazy attempt at padding and there's a lot of repetition in its missions; Superstar Saga is easily one of my favorite games, with amazing visuals and music, but its combat is too simplistic and its plot is nonsense; I can easily see what Super Mario 64 did right in its art direction, creative levels, and general sense of adventure, but it's repetitive beyond belief and its controls suck; and so on and so forth. I wouldn't call these games bad by any stretch of the imagination (except maybe SM64, it did not age well), but the old games aren't holy grails and I always get frustrated whenever someone calls them that. Personally, Super Mario 3D World is easily a return to form, with a fantastic art direction, a memorable soundtrack, new and interesting power-ups, new and unique levels that still feel like a part of the series, a lot of stage mechanics that do their best to experiment, and more, but it still suffers from the repetition that plagues a lot of the series. I'm not going to say that there's never been any iterative games recently, such as New Super Mario Bros. and New Super Mario Bros. 2, but isn't that exactly what Nintendo did with Super Mario Bros. and The Lost Levels over twenty years ago? My main point is that if you keep trying to romanticize the past and complaining about how the new games never live up to the nostalgia, you'll never get what you want.
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3D World, in my opinion, is not a return to form, although I have enjoyed playing it with my sister. That being said, I have no wishes to return to it because a lot of aspects of multiplayer are simply dreadful, and other games have spoiled me such as Kirby Returns to Dream Land, Rayman Origins/Legends, and even New Super Mario Bros. Wii to an extent. Also, opinions, but 3D World had pretty "meh" art direction which are floating planetoid things in many levels, and I'm not a fan of that. Say, "it's the Sprixie Kingdom, not Mushroom Kingdom" but the two are pretty much the same thing, and it's not like the Sprixie Kingdom itself could use better, more organic level layout.

I always had mild expectations for this game and the game only meets it. It's good but it feels incredibly safe. I think the biggest problem with Nintendo is overreliant on formulaic classical gameplay for Mario rather than trying new things or at least expanding with the Super Mario 64 gameplay, which you might argue that it's "nostalgia pandering", but it wouldn't feel as "formulaic" as 3D World or New Super Mario Bros. because it's so different and it's the only game that plays like... this. Super Mario Sunshine and Galaxy are the closest thing to 64 and even they wildly vary within themselves. It's kind of depressing when Mario has the sameish kind of gameplay for every Mario platformer when in the meantime, at least the Link games take more effort to try to distinguish and stand out from one another.

Maybe I'm growing up and cherry-picking but "Mario exclusively in space!" or "You can also play as Wario!" seemed like exciting concepts at the time and I kind of wish Nintendo makes Mario exciting again. Right now, it's just "Mario can now dress up as a cat". It makes me wonder if future Mario games that capitalize on crazy new concepts (to give credit, Paper Mario mingling with Mario & Luigi is pretty interesting).
 
As someone who played the game mostly solo, occasionally with a friend, I loved my time with it. There were a couple of levels that didn't quite fit for multiple people, but for the most part, I had so much fun. The cat form's great, if a bit underutilized. You can climb on walls and tackle levels from different angles, like the Cape from SMW or the Super Leaf from SMB3 except with less opportunity to ignore the entire level. I also don't quite know what you mean by "floating planetoid things", but the game easily has some of the most vibrant and eccentric colors I've ever seen in a Mario game. I can think of a whole spectrum of colors from the game that all fit for the game, like I would with Superstar Saga; when I think of, say, Super Mario Galaxy, I mostly think of dark blue with the occasional light blue, because the game loves to make those two colors the backdrop and they pop out the most.

I also don't get the "nintendo needs to innovate" argument. Regardless of the irony aspect, they've been doing that. I get where you're coming from in that there are iterative sequels recently (but again, SMB and TLL), but there are a ton of unique game mechanics in those games, and they're always put at the forefront. NSMB2 had the entire gold aspect, basing the structure of the whole game and its power-ups around collecting money; Galaxy 2 had a proper Yoshi in a 3D environment and not that weird juice-spitting variant from Sunshine, and then gave Yoshi new power-ups, and then gave Mario new power-ups, and then based many of the levels around each of those new aspects, 3D World again had Cat Mario, giving a sense of verticality in a 3D environment, as well as the Double Cherry, requiring the player to copies themselves which has never been done before, and then had an entire sub-game based around not jumping with Captain Toad. Seriously, Nintendo's been innovating tons, and there have been plenty of new items, new levels, and new enemies to prove that. Actually, could I ask you how Nintendo has innovated in the past? Seriously, I've gone back through the articles to see exactly how much is added or changed, and what I've come across is pretty consistent with what's happened recently.

Honestly, I think you're expecting far too much of the series as a whole. Why is "Mario in space" any more exciting to you than "You can play as a cat" or "You can play as an actual Yoshi" or whatever? For me, I was excited beyond belief to see Yoshi in some proper platforming. If you keep trying to mount bigger and bigger expectations on anyone, they're never going to deliver, and this is especially true if you keep building up their previous escapades more and more. I haven't even touched on the ludicrous novelties of Mario & Luigi and Paper Mario (if marrying the two series together isn't innovating, what is?), but the platformers alone have more than enough to offer. Also, The Legend of Zelda's a cheap example because the two series rely on completely different aspects: Zelda relies mainly on story and puzzles (occasionally action), while Mario relies mainly on platforming, and there's only so much you can do with that.
 
Whoah! Quite many topics touched here!
Regarding RPGs, I think with Paper Jam Nintendo realized what it apparently tried to do with Sticker Star (but failed because of bosses): no new characters, the same settings in the Mushroom Kingdom, Bowser as main villain.
The interview showed that, apparently, this is tangential with what AlphaDream wanted to do which was trying new things with the gameplay (e.g. dodging with three characters, copy blocks, trio moves in battles, as well as paper abilities with three characters and dash in the overworld, with papercraft battles as new giant battles). I'm glad that at least the guys at AlphaDream also developed the characters personalities which is something always welcome, especially when the "Encyclopedia Super Mario Bros." contains bios of pretty much two sentences to describe them.
Regarding going safe, this seems to be a recent trend that apparently also affected the RPGs now, I'm guessing this could have two causes: wanting to launch Mario as a brand that as many people as possible must know (and thus being very simple itself and with a simple concept, otherwise it is difficult to fully understand and remember) and also ensuring that the main aspects of Mario gameplay don't get diluted with secondary aspects (graphics, complex settings, story and so on) to "preserve" the purity of the Mario games.
There might also be economical reasons, as the Wii U flopped and so experimenting might be very costly and quite risky for Nintendo, especially if you end up scrapping a game after two years of development showed that the new idea wasn't very good in the first place.
Then , there are the difficulties of creating proper roster in time, but this is regarding the spin-offs and is a totally different issue, which might become even worse in the future unless Nintendo revises its deadlines and does not promise a game in too little time (Paper Jam itself was released 2 years after Dream Team, and considering the work needed to create pixel art for new characters, this was clearly not much time).
But really, understanding how Nintendo works today internally is not something I can really do, so this wall of text is just my two cents...
 
3D World has a lot of geometric shapes (like squares), and practically all levels take place in the sky or over lava, which is what 2D tile-based platforming put on a 3D plane. I'm just not a fan of that level style, just as how I'm not a huge fan of Rainbow Ride, Lethal Lava Land, or Whomp's Fortress.

People have been bringing up new items, levels, enemies, power-ups, etc. as reasons Nintendo is still innovating, but every iterative game (like New Super Mario Bros. 2) people have been harping on are doing exactly that, even classic "rehashes" like Call of Duty, Dynasty Warriors, Mario Party have been adding "new" stuff, so people are looking past that point. The new power-ups in Galaxy 2 aren't even handled well, with Yoshi's power-ups being extremely limited, and on a timer, with Yoshi being extremely limited itself. Galaxy utterly failed in expanding and improving on Galaxy 1 in that aspect, and they had the potential to innovate and make great uses of the Boo Mushroom, Red Star, and Ice Flower, but they're pretty much nixed or again relegated to one super linear "gimmick" level.

Double Cherry has a spark of brilliance, but it's not enough to make up for the overwhelming safeness the game has. Same thing for Captain Toad, he even has an entire game around that.

Nintendo has innovated in the past with gameplay-heavy features. Super Mario 64 is a hell a lot different from its contemporaries with a health system, slightly more varied combat, and a whole lot of other core gameplay differences, probably due to system limitations, but it really stands out due to this.

Super Mario Sunshine has the entire F.L.U.D.D., which again, is a lot different from merely introducing new power-ups, enemies, and levels. It's like giving Mario a permanent weapon which definitely helps the game to stand out. Sunshine is flawed, yes, but it doesn't have much to with F.L.U.D.D. and more to collection issues, which can be alleviated in a sequel.

Super Mario Galaxy is... well, Mario in space, and it plays a bit like Super Mario 64 but higher emphasis on yet another weapon: the star spin. The entire concept was pretty novel at the time and IMO it's like Mario breaking the frontiers or something. After Sunshine's languishing state, critics praised that as a return to form (I think it's pretty good; I'd give it 8.5-9/10, flaws keep it from being higher than 9). And it's a pretty damn new deal at the time, especially when you compare it to its predecessors.

New Super Mario Bros., meanwhile, is a solid classic return to the series, but I don't think it's considered spectacular despite being fairly aged, so you can't really say nostalgia drives it, especially when it's older than Super Mario Galaxy.

New Super Mario Bros. Wii is really good too, but it's unfortunate that New Super Mario Bros. 2 and New Super Mario Bros. U are made later so people tend to associate the series as a whole as "rehash" and "cash-grabs" when I think the first two entries don't wholly deserve hate.

Super Mario 3D Land came around as a new thing as well. I don't remember it being impressive and neither did critics, but I did enjoy it all the same.

Again I think the biggest problem with the recent games is that the recent mainstream platformers happen to be Super Mario 3D Land, Super Mario 3D World, Super Mario Maker, and New Super Mario Bros. U. They're all "sameish" in a sense, and Super Mario Maker would've sounded hella amazing if I wasn't aware that fan-made Mario level creators exist and have much more flexibility despite some advantages Super Mario Maker has over them. Nevertheless, I had low expectations for Super Mario Maker, and I expected lack of obvious features, arbitrary restrictions, and lack of flexibility, and it actually delivered that to my disgust. The only neat things are Mystery Mushrooms, gimmicky stuff like SFX and putting wings on everything but Super Mario Maker is heavily restricted if you want to make serious levels on par with New Super Mario Bros. Wii. My point is, though, they all feel pretty formulaic with the whole flagpoles, time limits, worthless coins, and the heavy emphasis on stomping and power-ups.

"Mario in space" sounds more exciting because it's revolved around an entire Mario game rather than a power-up, especially when power-ups are used very sparingly (I'm looking at you, Yoshi). I give it to you that the Cat Costume has a big presence and I was excited to see it, but it isn't quite the same deal as in Galaxy, as it feels like it's on a much smaller scope. I feel space is perfect for so many possibilities, especially for a surreal world like Mario's, and again, I can't describe it to you in objective terms.

I've already brought up Mario & Luigi + Paper Mario, actually, and I'd love to see a sequel on this, maybe even adding more in-series references like recipe-making, iterative power-ups for Paper Mario, and other things. I think the characterization is great, although the series merge in of itself has little to do with this (and Mario & Luigi need to talk for Christ Sake; get cues from Fortune Street, will ya?)

Mister Wu said:
Whoah! Quite many topics touched here!
Regarding RPGs, I think with Paper Jam Nintendo realized what it apparently tried to do with Sticker Star (but failed because of bosses): no new characters, the same settings in the Mushroom Kingdom, Bowser as main villain.
The interview showed that, apparently, this is tangential with what AlphaDream wanted to do which was trying new things with the gameplay (e.g. dodging with three characters, copy blocks, trio moves in battles, as well as paper abilities with three characters and dash in the overworld, with papercraft battles as new giant battles). I'm glad that at least the guys at AlphaDream also developed the characters personalities which is something always welcome, especially when the "Encyclopedia Super Mario Bros." contains bios of pretty much two sentences to describe them.
Regarding going safe, this seems to be a recent trend that apparently also affected the RPGs now, I'm guessing this could have two causes: wanting to launch Mario as a brand that as many people as possible must know (and thus being very simple itself and with a simple concept, otherwise it is difficult to fully understand and remember) and also ensuring that the main aspects of Mario gameplay don't get diluted with secondary aspects (graphics, complex settings, story and so on) to "preserve" the purity of the Mario games.
There might also be economical reasons, as the Wii U flopped and so experimenting might be very costly and quite risky for Nintendo, especially if you end up scrapping a game after two years of development showed that the new idea wasn't very good in the first place.
Then , there are the difficulties of creating proper roster in time, but this is regarding the spin-offs and is a totally different issue, which might become even worse in the future unless Nintendo revises its deadlines and does not promise a game in too little time (Paper Jam itself was released 2 years after Dream Team, and considering the work needed to create pixel art for new characters, this was clearly not much time).
But really, understanding how Nintendo works today internally is not something I can really do, so this wall of text is just my two cents...
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Yeah, I want to be fair with Nintendo. They recently lost Iwata, the Wii U isn't doing extremely well, and they're losing shares and stuff. But Nintendo has shown to be daring and innovative such as in Splatoon, or they incredibly expanded on their I.P.s such as Super Smash Bros. Mario just seems to suffer from stagnation.
 
You ignored the first platformers entirely, which, again, 3D World has a lot more in common with, but at this point, it'd be better to agree to disagree.
 
Time Turner said:
You ignored the first platformers entirely, which, again, 3D World has a lot more in common with, but at this point, it'd be better to agree to disagree.
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That's because I have no strong opinions on these. I haven't played them. Even if I did, I'll admit to enjoying New Super Mario Bros. more. I don't know the expectations back then, but they're certainly different today. My post, in the end, is all biased and opinionated, and I can't form an opinion on games I haven't played. That being said, the previous games were the first in the series, so they don't have much to work from in the first place, so you can't be in any position to say that they're safe games. But once you factor them, you can determine if a future game is safe or not.
 
I just saw the commercial for this game in Cartoon Network. Don't mean to brag, but I'm so excited! I even got the New Nintendo 3DS XL for this game. I think I'll pre-order it too.
 
Excuse me for interjecting this way, but I'd just like to say: I really love the Mario RPGs, I love the original characters and my favourite game is Mario & Luigi: Bowser's Inside Story. However, despite the lack of original characters, Mario & Luigi: Paper Jam is actually a very fun, enjoyable game -- I own it, by the way -- that still feels like a Mario RPG in the way that Paper Mario: Sticker Star didn't. If you approach it with such a closed mind, of course you're not going to like it. You have to accept it for what it is for now, and then we can hope for some original characters in the next one.

(Besides; chances are, you won't remember every enemy that appears in this game, as it includes some of the newer ones from the likes of Super Mario 3D World.)
 
Harpesian said:
(Besides; chances are, you won't remember every enemy that appears in this game, as it includes some of the newer ones from the likes of Super Mario 3D World.)
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My sister and I joke about those Shelltops, which we said that every desperate RPG fan wants in their games.
 
Harpesian said:
(Besides; chances are, you won't remember every enemy that appears in this game, as it includes some of the newer ones from the likes of Super Mario 3D World.)
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Still rooting for Oucher Glass to make a reappearance.

yes that's a pun

no nintendo does not care

edit: officially the only person who remembers it woot
 
I remember on my second playthrough of Mario & Luigi: Superstar Saga I was like, "Did I ever even fought those assholes?"
 
I actually had to look it up and I go "oh, THAT thing".

How come no one here wants Winkles?
 
sameish is a good way to describe the new Mario games. they also feel kinda devoid of personality, just a bunch of levels cobbled together. i don't know much about paper jam or whatever, but it seems like they're just trying to pump out a bunch of these rpgs
 
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