Paper Mario TTYD vs Paper Mario vs Super Paper Mario

oh no I remember this thread

help me

Incoming Textwall:

To be honest, my viewpoint on SPM was incredibly biased and how I looked at TTYD was as well, especially when I hadn't played it yet (and still haven't to this very day) but there's no doubt whatsoever that TTYD is overrated. It's probably great, I'm sure it is, but it's not a "masterpiece" as most people consider it, and I find that statement as ridiculous as people who find SPM being called a masterpiece just the same.

Regardless I can fully understand people disliking Super Paper Mario for it's sharp differences compared to the rest of the series, let alone the franchise as a whole, like the artstyle.

While originally I had no idea why the artstyle looked the way it was and never really minded it all that much, I know exactly why everything appears as geometric shapes, and why SPM was so obsessed with shoving that in your face; it's composed of two things.

One: I'm positive the reason why they went for the "geometric" look was because they were trying to create something that felt otherworldly or unseen until now, given that the game takes place in dimensions completely separate from Mario's. I've read earlier that there was a comment stating that they could've just used SMB2 enemies and the like, but that wouldn't work at all given that most of the SMB2 enemies have already been integrated into the normal Mario universe, not just Subcon, so using them wouldn't really establish any "otherworldly" feel. This also explains why everything clashes with Mario; it's because Mario doesn't belong there, it's not his dimension.

Two: NES graphics. I bet you don't believe this at first glance, but straight down to the name, the Starman powerup of the game, and the fact it's a platformer, let alone the only platformer in the Paper Mario series, convinces me that Super Paper Mario was trying to imitate a "ehhh pixel-art-but-not-really-at-the-same-time" look. Now, honestly, I can say that didn't pay off at all, and just looks weird in the process, but if they were really trying to get "weird" to achieve the "otherworldly" feel then good job, I guess.

I don't really have any doubt that the areas look bland, but unlike most people it's hard to get me to hate a game or actually truly hate anything at all. Whether or not I acted that way to TTYD nine months ago, I'm not all that sure. because I'm too lazy to read the previous page in the thread

Also, I'd like to mention that the "it's just Romeo and Juliett with Mario characters" thing is almost like a stereotype, because it's not even actually true. The only thing it applies to is the fact that two lovers were separated by their parents (in this case Bleck's) and that they reunite in the end, but everything outside of that has nothing to do with it as far as I'm concerned.

I'd like to mention that I think the game could also do without the artstyle and it'd look just as fine in TTYD's, since it would allow the environments to do much more and have more detail than they do right now. I wouldn't mind a battle system either, but until somebody actually tries to make an RPG-styled SPM fangame, I'm fine with what we have right now.

Also, if you find the "chosen one" thing stupid, Yoshi's Story DS already did that, and there's even more than just four in that one. I don't think Nintendo cares about throwing around the "chosen one" concept, even if Intelligent Systems created SPM.

I'd like to also mention that 2-3 is not "grinding simulator" if you actually pay attention, because you're supposed to reach a vault with Slim in order to get enough rubees to pay off the debt. If anything, the blocks and the hamster wheel seem to just be a gag, and not your actual goal in the level. Sure, you can call the vault thing cryptic and unfair, but it's still there.

also:

And while opinions here may differ, and I'm aware this topic is for our own, personal opinions here, I'd like to just mention that Super Paper Mario sold 2.28 million copies as of 2008, and was incredibly well received by popular critics.

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If you hate most of these critics or if you think their opinion means nothing compared to normal people's word, that's fine, but the game was still received positively enough to win a place in Nintendo Selects.

I see no actual reason to directly hate the game. The people who dislike the game I just can't agree with because none of the things that irritate them or make them hate it bothers me in any way, and if it does, it's minor and I don't care about it.

Maybe I just don't have anything to compare it to, and I'm seeing it from a specific standpoint since it's my only Paper Mario game, but even if I had TTYD or PM64 I still wouldn't have a reason to actually hate this game, sure, there's things I dislike about it, but I'm nowhere near hating it for these things.

tl;dr TTYD isn't a masterpiece and SPM isn't either but I'm positive they're both great games

Mcmadness said:
It's memorable for how terrible it was.
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you really feel strongly about this don't you
 
TheCapeLuigi said:
you really feel strongly about this don't you
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Never hated a game so much in my life.
 
Hey TheCapeLuigi, it's good to see you back. You seemed like a cool guy during that short time in January when you were active.

Anyway, I have a fairly moderate opinion on Super Paper Mario; there were a few things I really liked, but there were also a few flaws. I haven't played TTYD yet so I can't say for sure, but given the reputation it has, I'd say it's probably at least somewhat better. I'll know for sure whenever I play TTYD.
 
Luigi 64DD said:
Hey TheCapeLuigi, it's good to see you back. You seemed like a cool guy during that short time in January when you were active.

Anyway, I have a fairly moderate opinion on Super Paper Mario; there were a few things I really liked, but there were also a few flaws. I haven't played TTYD yet so I can't say for sure, but given the reputation it has, I'd say it's probably at least somewhat better. I'll know for sure whenever I play TTYD.
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Yeah, I ended up going inactive because I lost some of my interest in Mario, but eventually I came back when my interest picked up again. And to be honest I actually thought you were a pretty nice guy during my activity in January.

Anyways, I actually find that pretty understandable, as I found flaws in SPM as well and it's not really the kind of game that's enjoyable enough to convince you to play it again (although that's probably because it doesn't have very good replayability, you can only fight the bosses once and never again on a single save, and bosses in games are very important to me) but it's nowhere near bad, and I'm going to guess TTYD is about as good, but I wouldn't know since I probably won't ever get the chance to play it. But hey, never say never.

Although it's kind of hard to objectively say TTYD is better than SPM when one is a purebred RPG and the other is a platformer RPG, so it really all comes down to personal preferences as to which one is better (or if they're equal).
 
TheCapeLuigi said:
And to be honest I actually thought you were a pretty nice guy during my activity in January.
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Thanks!

I may play TTYD on Virtual Console if they ever add Gamecube games to the Switch; otherwise I'd have to buy an original copy online and who knows how hard that could be. And yeah, I agree with your points.
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Luigi 64DD said:
Hey TheCapeLuigi, it's good to see you back. You seemed like a cool guy during that short time in January when you were active.
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I still remember your sig. :P Haters gonna hate.

As for me, I think The Thousand-Year Door is overrated.
 
Trunks Mario said:
Luigi 64DD said:
Hey TheCapeLuigi, it's good to see you back. You seemed like a cool guy during that short time in January when you were active.
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I still remember your sig. :P Haters gonna hate.

As for me, I think The Thousand-Year Door is overrated.
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Agreed, and to be honest, because of that, if I'm ever able to play TTYD, I don't think I'd ever be able to enjoy it nearly as much as everyone else simply because of just how much it's been crammed down my throat, usually with people saying repeatedly it's the "best Mario game ever made" which eventually drives you crazy after a while, especially when it's multiple people saying the same thing.

Not like people having opinions is a bad thing, if that's how they feel, that's fine, but when everywhere you go you have to hear people mentioning Doopliss or Vivian I don't think you can completely blame me for feeling that way.

Still, I wouldn't mind playing the game, I'd probably enjoy it, but I really don't think I could ever get invested in the game's story, sadly.
 
Trunks Mario said:
Luigi 64DD said:
Hey TheCapeLuigi, it's good to see you back. You seemed like a cool guy during that short time in January when you were active.
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I still remember your sig. :P Haters gonna hate.

As for me, I think The Thousand-Year Door is overrated.
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Not on these boards for sure ;)

Though I too think it's better to have a more objective approach to it rather than just praising it to death, if anything because I find it irritating seeing how much were the first Mario & Luigi games bashed because they clearly weren't TTYD or SPM...
 
Thousand Year Door is an improvement over the first game in many aspects, but is bogged down by dumb battle gimmicks, unnecessary backtracking, and an uninteresting main villain who is overshadowed by both his second in command and the actual final boss.
 
TheCapeLuigi said:
Still, I wouldn't mind playing the game, I'd probably enjoy it, but I really don't think I could ever get invested in the game's story, sadly.
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that's not a bad thing, since Mario games have never been great at story-telling.
 
Trunks Mario said:
TheCapeLuigi said:
Still, I wouldn't mind playing the game, I'd probably enjoy it, but I really don't think I could ever get invested in the game's story, sadly.
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that's not a bad thing, since Mario games have never been great at story-telling.
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Yeah, but most people tell me that the "best" part or the "main" part of TTYD is the story, and that it's the best story in the entire franchise, hands-down. Although honestly, from my perspective, I don't see what's so breathtaking about it.
 
Something just tells me that the majority of the Thousand-Year Door angelic trumpeters haven't played much RPGs and they don't have that kind of perspective that the story tropes in Thousand-Year Door is overdone not just in some MaRPGs but many, many JRPGs in general. The story is just nothing special. What I'm guessing is that people like the dialogue and the little jokes they make and the characters' personalities rather than the storytelling, but they think that's part of "story". Which it is, but people aren't giving enough credit to the characters.

Even then, Mario's bland as hell. :P
 
Since this seems to have turned into the "the Ryota Kawade paper mario games aren't that great, actually.", I might as well talk about something I've been mulling on. The first three Paper Marios are often held as their uber-creative and daring games, and their proponent often lament how safe and conversative the franchise has become since then. And yeah, TTYD et al. certainly feature funny and winkful twits on the franchise on its characters, and yeah the direction of the Mario RPG on the 3DS and onwards is very lame. But deal is, fans downplay or willfully ignore those three games recycle plot beats, motifs and setpieces. Like, a lot.

Some of the entries are reaching ("Chapter 5 is set in a cave") or are simply quick running gags, but even discounting chaff, there's a lot of plot beat rehashing that can't reasonably excused as scènes à faire or running themes. Like, if someone were to do a film series that recycle itslf as much as the first three Paper Mario recycled their predecessors, they'd be called an one-trick pony. And if someone were to make a sequel in a long-dead genre franchise and recycle from the previous entry as much as Super Paper Mario borrows from Paper Mario TTYD, a vocal segment would crucify them as a nostagia-pandering hack.
 
Trunks Mario said:
Something just tells me that the majority of the Thousand-Year Door angelic trumpeters haven't played much RPGs and they don't have that kind of perspective that the story tropes in Thousand-Year Door is overdone not just in some MaRPGs but many, many JRPGs in general. The story is just nothing special.
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does this mean that the original Paper Mario and possibly even Color Splash are the most original out of all of them despite the rehashing of the bowser-kidnaps-peach scenario

Also, is it wrong I kind of wish the title of the topic and the poll itself would be changed in order to include Sticker Star and Color Splash? I mean, there's still people that like Sticker Star regardless, and there's a lot of people that enjoyed Color Splash as well.

Additionally, on another subject, given that TTYD is supposed to be a polished, "perfected" version of PM64's gameplay, do you think that it would be possible to iron out the kinks (pun not intended) of SPM's gameplay to make it more enjoyable, or do you think that SPM's gameplay can't be fixed and was doomed from the start?

I mean, my biggest problem with it was the physics, which were pretty lackluster compared to the actual Mario platformer titles, and kind of slow or floaty compared to them. I think if it took more notes from the classic Mario titles, I'm pretty sure it'd be much better. Especially if it had better level design that made the chapters feel more unique compared to one another.

I have no clue how you could get the 3D flipping to work, though.
 
Not to mention, both Paper Mario (mainly the original) and Mario & Luigi are guilty as the rest for using the same world themes. The first Paper Mario has grassland, haunted forest/mansion, desert/cliffs, underground, ocean/jungle, ice, Bowser's Castle. Oh, and a toy box and a star hill I guess. The next ones are more varied, though. Mario & Luigi is far more guilty of reusing common themes. Superstar Saga begins with a purple wasteland, but you can pin the rest of the majority of the theming on grass, desert, jungle, ocean, mountain, ice, Bowser's Castle. Partners in Time (not in any order): grass, desert, mountain, castle, underground, snow though more varied since we get a factory, the inside of a monster, Toad Town ruins, and a ethereal-like star hill. While half of Bowser's Inside Story is inside Bowser, the other half seems to be grass, jungle, beach, underground, not "imaginative" at all. Dream Team's theming is similar too: grass, desert, beach, mountains, forest, underground, castle. Then, the next games get bashed on for their theming.

TheCapeLuigi said:
Additionally, on another subject, given that TTYD is supposed to be a polished, "perfected" version of PM64's gameplay, do you think that it would be possible to iron out the kinks (pun not intended) of SPM's gameplay to make it more enjoyable, or do you think that SPM's gameplay can't be fixed and was doomed from the start?
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If it's supposed to be "perfected", it didn't do a great job. The only thing that's miles better is the partners system, but I don't see a lot of genuine improvements from the first one (also, sound effects though don't you think it's weird that only select characters get voices?). The stylish moves and super shields are nice and I think the audience has potential to be better but overall I've seen several steps down such as the stage effects and that slot machine. There are also paper abilities which are nice too and helps with the "paper" look. On the other hand, the X-Nauts aren't that memorable and no one remembers Smorg.
 
Trunks Mario said:
If it's supposed to be "perfected", it didn't do a great job. The only thing that's miles better is the partners system, but I don't see a lot of genuine improvements from the first one
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Well, at least that's what I heard from most people, which state that TTYD was supposed to be an improvement over PM64, although given that a lot of those people are the kinds that tell me the story is the best part of the game, that's probably not saying a whole lot.

Again, I haven't played TTYD, so I'd probably never know. I really only have other people's word to work off of, although I could try watching a playthrough of the game sometime.
 
I think one of the reasons I was fairly let down by Thousand-Year Door is because like everyone was saying how awesome the game was and how it improved in Paper Mario in every way, so I came into the game expecting it to be really amazing and stuff

I found it......good. It had a lot of design flaws that kept me from enjoying the game, one problem was the world connection, where you always have to travel through some sewer and let a bunch of Warp Pipes do all the work of world building. Convenient, sure, but I find it inferior to how Paper Mario 64 handled it, where, for instance, Forever Forest had a nice transition from Toad Town to spooky, uncharted territory. You don't get that with Twilight Town at all. There's a lot of other stuff I didn't like in TTYD despite the improvements, and those kept me from liking TTYD than 64.
 
The story is nothing special at all. You're saving Peach from evil space guys and collecting seven stars to open a door. When somebody tells you they like a Paper Mario game's story, nine times out of ten what they really like are the characters and the writing.
 
Magikrazy said:
The story is nothing special at all. You're saving Peach from evil space guys and collecting seven stars to open a door. When somebody tells you they like a Paper Mario game's story, nine times out of ten what they really like are the characters and the writing.
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Something can have a simple or stock plot and still be a great story.
 
Glowsquid said:
Something can have a simple or stock plot and still be a great story.
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Of course it can.

That one wasn't it.
 
Mcmadness said:
Glowsquid said:
Something can have a simple or stock plot and still be a great story.
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Of course it can.

That one wasn't it.
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I wasn't opinying on the quality of TTYD's storytelling one way or another, bub.
 
Don't call me bub.

That was my great aunt's name.
 
Trunks Mario said:
Something just tells me that the majority of the Thousand-Year Door angelic trumpeters haven't played much RPGs and they don't have that kind of perspective that the story tropes in Thousand-Year Door is overdone not just in some MaRPGs but many, many JRPGs in general.
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While I do think TTYD's awesome, I have to admit the wacky characters are what make it stand out. The setting and story are very cliched when compared to other JRPGs. If you want a JRPG with a unique story then play Chrono Trigger or Final Fantasy VI
 
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