Would you like a different story/villain every once in a while?

J

Jumping Spider

BOOP!
We all know the story of all the mainstream 2D or 3D Mario games: in the first ones Mario and Luigi spend time with the princess then she gets captured and they gotta travel to Bowser's land to save her, in the latter either they are in a new place already when the kidnapping happens (Delfino Island) or Bowser kidnaps her and escapes, ragardless Mario needs to get the “Power (something)” to stop Bowser.
Even when the plot's not about saving Peach there still is a kidnapping in there, Mario in Luigi's Mansion and Luigi's Mansion 2, Baby Luigi in Yoshi's Island, Toadette in Captain Toad: Treasure Tracker and the Sprixies in Mario 3D World.
While they could have been avoided easily...

With that you might be already replying “Mario doesn't need story to be enjoyable, story's just a pretext for the adventure to start”, I know and I agree that it should be simple, but at least make it different, don't have Peach bekidnapped by Bowser 6924823 times.
You can make many simple stories that don't involve any kidnapping, expecially thanks to Mario games having close to 0 lore, so you don't even need to worry about any canon outside of “Princess Peachs' castle is in green fields land, Bowser's castle is in lava land”. You have so many possibilities for making stories that are simple to understand yet they don't, I'm talking about stuff like this (it's just a quick example BTW):
"Mario, Luigi and Peach went to partake in a trip to the beautiful Evergreen Islands archipelago, to admire the majestic Crystal Star, a large mineral that gives the islands the power to stay in a perpetual spring, however Bowser was aware of Peach's arrival at the islands and he hid there. All of a sudden Bowser appears out of nowhere and attemps to kidnap Peach, but he notices the Crystal Start aswell and, realizing it must have special properties, he pulls a large hammer out of his Coopa Clown Car which he uses to shatter the Crystal Star into 8 piece: he takes them all and gives 7 to his minions while keeping 1 for himself so he can try and take advantage of its power to take over the Mushroom Kingdom. It's up to Mario and the gane to retrieve the Crystal Star pieces, stop Bowser and save the Evergren Islands archipelago."

I mean, this plot can be conveyed visually pretty simply in a single cutscene: the Gang arrivers near the star and admires it, Bowser appears from behind it and breaks it, grabs its fragements and escaping with them, it doesn't take a genius to understand that Bowser smashing a huge crystal start that's beign admired by everyone and then escaping with its pieces means he's the bad guy and that retrieving the pieces of the star is your goal.

Sure, some could bring up the issue of “Why would Boswer not care about Peach all of a sudden?”, well he would technically use said Crystal Star to later force Peach to surrender and marry him. Still, he suddently feels like taking over the Sprixie Kingdom in 3D World and doesn't care about an easily-kidnappable Peach that was litterally a ew feet away from him, so I'd say this should be much of an issue.

But that was just a quick example I made, there's so many more simplistic plots like this that could be made instead of “save Peach”, why do we never get one? I undestand that having 0 focus on the story and re-hashing the same one everytime allows you to focus 100% on level design and other stuff but at least an effort in ditching the Peach-kidnappings in favour of other super-simple plots would go a great way in making the games feel more unique; the only real difference in Story os the way Peach is kidnapped basically.

Or if you wanna keep the kidnappings maybe have a villain that's not Bowser for once, albeit I guess there could be the issue of why Koopas and Goombas would still be here, so maybe the new villain could ally with Bowser and he appears as a new recurring Boss. Maybe has his own boss stages that differ from Bowser's usual catles and airships? Plus he could attack using different moves and it would be really refreshing to see a new baddie to face, you could have very creative Boss fights (expecially true for the 2D games).

What do you guys think of this? Would you like a new (simplistic) plot and/or a new villain every once in a while? Not everytime, just as an occasional change from having Bowser kidnap Peach all the time.
 
I think a cool premise for a plot would be Bowser, Wart and Tatanga teaming up to get revenge on Mario and cause havoc using the power of [Insert McGuffin here] but they each have different motives and eventually start getting in each others' way/backstabbing one another. Eventually the three tyrants split up and fight among themselves along with trying to destroy Mario all at the same time.
 
I think having a new villain other than Bowser is unnecessary most of the time, because the said villain just does whatever Bowser would have done anyway. Besides, I like Bowser as a villain and I don't mind him always as a bad guy in the Mario games. The fact that he's not the guy who screws you over in Super Mario Party makes me pretty sad, because the Mario Party series has a lots of great moments for him and very fun dialogue to come out of it. Every time they make some new replacement villain for Bowser, they just end up being discarded and forgotten anyway by the next game so I think even occasionally it's pointless.

Story isn't something I think about twice when I play a Mario game. It doesn't matter what the motivation is for the characters to go on their adventure, the plot of a Mario game isn't the reason I'm playing it. Pretty much nothing about the game would change if suddenly there was a new villain who stole Mcguffins instead of Bowser doing it.
 
Russian Baby Luigi said:
I think having a new villain other than Bowser is unnecessary most of the time, because the said villain just does whatever Bowser would have done anyway. Besides, I like Bowser as a villain and I don't mind him always as a bad guy in the Mario games. The fact that he's not the guy who screws you over in Super Mario Party makes me pretty sad, because the Mario Party series has a lots of great moments for him and very fun dialogue to come out of it. Every time they make some new replacement villain for Bowser, they just end up being discarded and forgotten anyway by the next game so I think even occasionally it's pointless.

Story isn't something I think about twice when I play a Mario game. It doesn't matter what the motivation is for the characters to go on their adventure, the plot of a Mario game isn't the reason I'm playing it. Pretty much nothing about the game would change if suddenly there was a new villain who stole Mcguffins instead of Bowser doing it.
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I forgot to mention it in my post but the idea was mostly about making new and intresting Boss-related stuff, both in terms of Boss stages and Boss Battles themeselves (this is mostly for the 2D games actually), with Bowser and the Koopalings the setting and the way the Boss fight goes are always quite similar: the setting is either a castle/fortress or an airship, whereas the way you defeat them is always the same "jump on them 3 times and then avoid the shell attack" with Bowser requiring the usual botton-press to destroy the bridge he's on, albeit I'm liking how they spiced up his 2D Boss fights in the WiiU and 3DS games by making him go giant (expecially the one on 3DS is quite original, even the area where the Koopalings follow you trough the stage on the Koopa Clown Car).

Still, with brand-new villains the game wouldn't change much, just like you said, but the Bosses could benefit from a HUUUUGE variety boost, even more than any possible power you might give to Bowser.
For example we know that in most Mario games robotic enemies are often more robust than most normal enemies (except rare cases) and they either can only be knocked around (like the Mechakoopas) and defeated by falling into an abyss/getting crushed or they forcefully require a ground pound (like their "buffer" Super Maro Galaxy counterpart) and that could be really useful, why you ask?

Well, what about an evil robot gang invading the Mushroom Kingdom wanting to turn it into metal or something?
You could make really cool designs for brand-new robotic bosses and they'd benefit from completely unique attack strategies and patterns compared to the Koopalings: instead of wands they could fire small missiles and lasers from cannon-arms (or maybe small Bullet Bills) and you could take advantage of robots being more robust (like I said) by forcing you to either ground pound-them or attacks them using something they might throw at you (like a Bob-Omb or a Koopa Shell), to keep the Goombas and Koopas as enemies maybe Bowser created the robots himself? So we could still have him as the main villain, but at least every other Boss but him would feel very unique, plus he could use a cool mech or something like that in the final battle with him at the end (to keep with the robot-theme).

It's not that I'm against Boswer as a villain, it's just that I'd want more varity in Boss strategies and such, and new Bosses would bring a breath of fresh air, seeing always Koopas 4782942983 times gets boring... (again, strategies to defat them are always really similar)
I LOVED the Broodals! They had cool attack patterns and they all felt different, yet Bowser still was the main villain.
If we can't replace Bowser then we need to give him new minions more frequently (like I suggested by making him the leader of an evil gang of robots), that's what I want; even if giving him a break as the villain for once would still be nice, again it's less for the story and more for the endless possibilities in terms of Boss-battle strategies that a new villain might bring.
It's all for gameplay variety and making the game feel more unique, less for story; hope things are a bit clearer now.
 
I don't undestand, the Broodals, by function, are Koopalings. There's little point to them as they weak recurring "mini-boss" villains that behave almost exactly like Koopalings/Boom-Boom, even how they retreat into their hats when they get stomped on. Spewart even looks like Morton. I don't even like the Koopalings, so my opinion on the Broodals is not very high on them. They're not interesting to me, they as lame as the Koopalings. The only thing going for them is that they're from the moon but the rabbit/moon trope is so overused so there's no points for originality there either.
 
Your original post hasn't mentioned anything boss battle related, and I really don't think a new villain would suddenly remedy problems the series has with boss fights, though. For example, pretty much all Mario games had pretty pathetic boss fights, regardless if it was Koopaling #5, Bowser Jr. boss fight #7, or Lord of Lightning who just looks cool and lasts for only 5 seconds tops. There are plenty of other platformers who has better boss fights than the Super Mario franchise, even if they still happened to be the easiest parts of the level, at least Yoshi's Island's boss fights were executed pretty creatively. It's not really about WHO they use for the boss fights, it's more of a question of, what do they do with the bosses that make them fun to fight against? Whatever they used for Koopalings and Boom Boom, it's awful. The Koopalings could have been used much more creatively than that, but as of now, they're generic, boring, and terrible boss fights and right now are just lazy excuses not to put more effort into these battles.

Also I think the Broodals were one of the weakest aspects of Super Mario Odyssey.
 
Princess Mario said:
I don't undestand, the Broodals, by function, are Koopalings. There's little point to them as they weak recurring "mini-boss" villains that behave almost exactly like Koopalings/Boom-Boom, even how they retreat into their hats when they get stomped on. Spewart even looks like Morton. I don't even like the Koopalings, so my opinion on the Broodals is not very high on them. They're not interesting to me, they as lame as the Koopalings.
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Yeah, they are similar but they sport different attacks (chanin chomp, spiked ball, spewing stuff etc.) and... well, they're not Koopalings, that's already a plus for me.
But overral I do agree they are just a "slightly upgraded" version of them in a way, but they still feel more unique and different from one another in the way they attack you, even if the "base" is still really similar to the Koopalings with the whole repating "attack phase + retrat into hat".

With robotic bosses being forced to use an item to attack them would make things feel fresher and you could give each one a different weapon too (lasers, missles, maybe some could shoot spikeballs?) and they could move differently: what about a robot with propellers that flies around or a slow, bulky one that kinda resembles a tank? Or one that teleports around? Or a large spider robot that moves all over the walls?
Even the stage you fight them could feel unique, as instead of castels or airship maybe you could fight them inside a factory stage? Or a kind of technological fortress? They're robots after all...
Not being forced to always use the Koopalings in 2D games would open up so many cool boss designs and strategies! The first New Super Mario Bros game had it right, I have no idea why they ditched the unique Bosses... (while Jr. was in every fort at least the Castle always had a brand-new enemy in them with unique looks, attack patterns and a way of defeating them)

Princess Mario said:
The only thing going for them is that they're from the moon but the rabbit/moon trope is so overused so there's no points for originality there either.
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Russian Baby Luigi said:
Your original post hasn't mentioned anything boss battle related, and I really don't think a new villain would suddenly remedy problems the series has with boss fights, though. For example, pretty much all Mario games had pretty pathetic boss fights, regardless if it was Koopaling #5, Bowser Jr. boss fight #7, or Lord of Lightning who just looks cool and lasts for only 5 seconds tops. There are plenty of other platformers who has better boss fights than the Super Mario franchise, even if they still happened to be the easiest parts of the level, at least Yoshi's Island's boss fights were executed pretty creatively. It's not really about WHO they use for the boss fights, it's more of a question of, what do they do with the bosses that make them fun to fight against? Whatever they used for Koopalings and Boom Boom, it's awful. The Koopalings could have been used much more creatively than that, but as of now, they're generic, boring, and terrible boss fights and right now are just lazy excuses not to put more effort into these battles.

Also I think the Broodals were one of the weakest aspects of Super Mario Odyssey.
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The thing is that the fact that Mario games are mostly aimed at kids forces the Bosses to all be easy, this way younger players don't get frustrated if they repeatedly lose to them but it also makes the battles not-too-intresting aswell for anyone's who's remotely good at Platformers.
They can be fun to fight but they slightly suffer from being same-y, and the low challenge makes them forgettable for most players who aren't kids.

At least Bosses that you can't jump onto would be more memorable because we rarely get Bosses like that, almost all of them require a jump or a ground pound, Bowser Jr. is actually a good example of this as he requires a shell hit in the DS battles and you fight him while on a Koopa Clown Car on the Wii (and the underwater battle on WiiU where you gotta lure his own missles at him was nice too).
Also I now mentioned Boss battles and the possibility of changing up the Boss stage, I forgot about that. Whoopsies! :P
 
Bowser is nice to have around tho.

Don't fix what ain't broken, you know. I mean there's no real problem with our buddy Bowzito, if anything, I'll let the boss battles themselves decide on wether a boss is good or not (although that hasn't stopped me for loving BoneChill's design despite his fight being the worst in the whole series)
 
A new excuse plot is fine but there is no reason to swap out Bowser, at least for the platformers. Heck he only has around 5 minutes of screen time at best in most Mario games.

As for repetitive boss fights and locations, that's not a Bowser problem, thats the developers being uncreative. Bowser is a very adaptable badguy, plenty of things that could potentially be done with him.
 
I don't mind the fact they use Bowser as long as they keep changing up his style like they did in Odyssey. More than anything I like having new big stage bosses to fight. I sorely missed them and I was glad to see them return in Odyssey.
 
Odyssey's bosses were easily the weakest component of Odyssey to me. Bosses were never that amazing in Mario games but man the bosses are... they just feel like minor breaks from usual gameplay rather than bosses. They had some fun designs, but I felt they were put to waste. They would work so much better if they became Mario Party bosses or MaRPG bosses but they probably won't become those in the future, just being one-offs with wasted potential. Like a lot of things in 3D Mario.
 
If the Broodals were a stand-in for the Koopalings, I imagine that due to having a fewer group count compared to the Koopalings is why there aren't Koopalings, since some fans would raise their voice if there aren't enough Koopalings. However, I can also see that they wanted a rabbit motif due to the moon, since I can't imagine the whole wedding taking place on the moon if it weren't for the Broodals.

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In terms of RPGs, I think a new villain should be in charge, especially in Mario & Luigi. Reason for saying this is, Bowser was already a final boss for five games in a row, so I think a new one would be a nice change of pace. Even Paper Mario had two non-Bowser final bosses which is much better.

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I wouldn't mind if Donkey Kong and family gets the villain limelight sometime, since Donkey Kong was after all the original Mario villain before he went on to star in his own series. My idea is that the three generations of Kongs (Cranky Kong, Donkey Kong Jr. and Donkey Kong) plus Diddy Kong will stage a kidnap for Pauline and travel all the way back to DK Island, where Mario had to chase him to retrieve Pauline.

Also, given that Wario also started out as a villain, I think it's high time he's a villain since unlike Donkey Kong, Wario haven't reprised his role as a villain lately (Oh, and Waluigi should join in too).

Thank you for reading.
 
Having Donkey and Diddy be villains is probably the single worst idea I've ever read on this entire forum.
 
Borp said:
Having Donkey and Diddy be villains is probably the single worst idea I've ever read on this entire forum.
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Donkey Kong certain had a precedence for villainy, and that's the modern version, thanks to the Mario vs. Donkey Kong games. Diddy Kong I can see why you might be upset about, but I was throwing the idea that the Kongs could be a villain for one time.

Thank you for reading.
 
Borp said:
Having Donkey and Diddy be villains is probably the single worst idea I've ever read on this entire forum.
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No, this is the best idea ever, Borp.
 
winstein said:
In terms of RPGs, I think a new villain should be in charge, especially in Mario & Luigi. Reason for saying this is, Bowser was already a final boss for five games in a row, so I think a new one would be a nice change of pace. Even Paper Mario had two non-Bowser final bosses which is much better.
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Long as the badguy in question isn't dull as cardboard (looking at you Antasma) and Bowser is nowhere to be seen in the game then I can deal with that.

None of this minor villain/anti-hero bullshit.
 
Bowser is too prominent to just plumb disappear, doesn't mean he always has to be the driving force. If Bowser doesn't physically appear there should at least be an explanation (like with Mario+Rabbids where he was on vacation I believe?) but it would still be odd for an adventure-oriented Mario game to not feature him at all, unless it was a platformer like SMB2 and the SML games.

However, as for new stories and villains, YES. I can't say yes enough. My favorite games in the franchise are the ones that subvert the usual main series Mario tropes, create new villains and villain groups and actually follow a (non-excuse) plot with twists etc. I don't care how they stack up to non-Mario games, I care how they stack up to other Mario games and that's how I judge them. And maybe I'd have less of an issue with Bowser as the antagonist in an RPG if it was still like Paper Mario 64, where he wasn't a limitation on the rest of the cast, but in the newer ones he tends to be. If he's the villain, expect all the enemies to be basic ones from the main series, every boss to be someone you've seen dozens of times, etc. Dream Team was the last RPG with him as the main villain that still had original bosses/enemies. And to be fair he was a twist villain there.

In fact, you know how Mario Odyssey let you skip cutscenes? You know how that feature could be implemented? Actually going all-in with the story in the next mainline game. Just let us skip the cutscenes, that way folks who only want to play can do so, but the folks who enjoy the plot can enjoy it. There's a reason I generally get more excited about the RPGs, and I think the things I'm suggesting can work in a platformer.
 
Fawfulthegreat64 said:
Bowser is too prominent to just plumb disappear
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Worked just fine for the Luigi's Mansion games.
 
Another Luigi game, but not set in any mansion whatsoever. Maybe he has to work with his alternate persona, Mr. L, in order to solve puzzles or something!
 
Borp said:
Princess Mario said:
No, this is the best idea ever, Borp.
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Mario should be the villain. :yoshi:
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Yes why not.

So when people ask who is my favorite villain, I say Mario.

But it has to be a certain way. Like, Mario should be the villain, but still in character. Kinda like the mayhem in Mario Golf: Toadstool Tour or Mario Power Tennis openings.
 
I love Bowser, but I often get sick of him constantly being the main villain. If he could take a step back once in a while, that'd be great. For the whole argument of "the villain would just do whatever bowser would've done", it doesn't make sense. You could say that about any villain from any media. The differences would come in their motives, how they'd command their forces, what their forces would be, what kind of boss battle you'd get, and what the villain's end goal would be. Plus the personality change would be wonderful. We get it, Bowser wants to take over the Mushroom Kingdom. Enough of the tired, recycled plot, let's get something different going for a change.
 
Princess Mario said:
Yes why not.

So when people ask who is my favorite villain, I say Mario.

But it has to be a certain way. Like, Mario should be the villain, but still in character. Kinda like the mayhem in Mario Golf: Toadstool Tour or Mario Power Tennis openings.
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What if Mario had to team up with Mario to save Mario from Mario? :yoshi:
 
Mario could win in a fight between Mario fighting another Mario and Mario punching himself.
 
Shiny Pichu said:
I love Bowser, but I often get sick of him constantly being the main villain. If he could take a step back once in a while, that'd be great. For the whole argument of "the villain would just do whatever bowser would've done", it doesn't make sense. You could say that about any villain from any media. The differences would come in their motives, how they'd command their forces, what their forces would be, what kind of boss battle you'd get, and what the villain's end goal would be. Plus the personality change would be wonderful. We get it, Bowser wants to take over the Mushroom Kingdom. Enough of the tired, recycled plot, let's get something different going for a change.
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To which my response is. It's Mario. The villains aren't going to have some drastic change in want or motivation. Boss fight variety isn't a problem as Bowser is extremely adaptable and whatever personality they might have is irrelevant as the actual amount of screentime they'll have is about 5 minutes at best.

There is simply no logical reason for them to do it just to please the small group of people who complain about it.
 
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