Star Wars in General (Movies, Shows, Books, Games, etc.)

[Dr. Javelin]

story is too stupid in star wars for me to consider anything canon

The plot of the (original) movies was good. The plot of the Thrawn trilogy was great.

The plots of the games are usually rather meh but hey, we get awesome characters like Kyle Katarn and Delta Squad out of them. And Republic Commando's story wasn't too bad.

 

[Zae]

story is too stupid in star wars for me to consider anything canon

The plot of the (original) movies was good. The plot of the Thrawn trilogy was great.

The plots of the games are usually rather meh but hey, we get awesome characters like Kyle Katarn and Delta Squad out of them. And Republic Commando's story wasn't too bad.

well its still pretty goofy and how jedi's are pretty much just magic space ninjas is hilarious.

Although the plots in the games can be good such as the old republic series, but in things like republic commando and the jedi outcast series... not so much.

 

[Dr. Javelin]

Republic Commando's story wasn't really supposed to be a story about the universe. It's just supposed to be a story of the Clone Wars told from four elite soldier's perspective. And that it was, and it was done well.

Jedi Outcast was pretty laughable though. BUT IT HAS KYLE KATARN, WHO IS THE STAR WARS EQUIVALENT OF CHUCK NORRIS

 

[Zae]

Republic Commando's story wasn't really supposed to be a story about the universe. It's just supposed to be a story of the Clone Wars told from four elite soldier's perspective. And that it was, and it was done well.

Jedi Outcast was pretty laughable though. BUT IT HAS KYLE KATARN, WHO IS THE STAR WARS EQUIVALENT OF CHUCK NORRIS

well the character you create in star wars jedi outcast 3 or whatever was actually more powerful then even kyle.

But i admit i liked kyle katarn quite a bit and it really shows you that just because you dont follow the jedi code completely doesnt mean you're just an entity of the dark side.

I personally think the plots are laughable in jedi outcast games, but the quality of the characters seems to be really nice.

 

[Dr. Javelin]

Yeah I really enjoyed in Jedi Outcast how using Dark side powers didn't automatically turn Kyle into a monster. I like the whole duality idea, where just because you use "evil powers" doesn't make you evil.

Kyle Katarn basically says "screw you, yoda. the dark side didn't forever dominate my destiny.". Which is good.

 

[Zae]

Yeah I really enjoyed in Jedi Outcast how using Dark side powers didn't automatically turn Kyle into a monster. I like the whole duality idea, where just because you use "evil powers" doesn't make you evil.

Kyle Katarn basically says "screw you, yoda. the dark side didn't forever dominate my destiny.". Which is good.

oh its really bad in the old republic series

the jedi mind literally focuses on no emotion, marriage, or something like that due to the fact that its apparently a tool of the dark side.

Really goes to show you both the light and dark side can be on equal grounds when it comes to being fucked up.

this is even more seen in star wars the old republic as the republic will actually torture their enemies to death or where the empire will actually spare living beings.

Kinda makes you think a bit.

 

[Dr. Javelin]

Which is why I prefer Luke Skywalker's New Jedi Order to the Republic's Jedi Order. Skywalker's leaves room for emotions such as compassion and love instead of requiring members to basically become monks.

 

[Zae]

Which is why I prefer Luke Skywalker's New Jedi Order to the Republic's Jedi Order. Skywalker's leaves room for emotions such as compassion and love instead of requiring members to basically become monks.

yeah i can agree on that at least, sadly this is only ever seen in like the games and eu.

 

[Lin Beifong]

"I think he is typing up a post."

...

"That's no post... it's a space station..."

"It's too big to be a space station."

"...You're right, it's just a really long post."


I only regard the original trilogy as canon, and the expanded universe material as things that COULD have happened, but don't necessarily have to and not necessarily in that exact way.

What I like about the original trilogy is that it is pretty effective in what it tells you and what it omits. It gives you just enough input to keep you invested in the story, but still leaves enough unclear to allow you to fill in the blanks. If you look at the movies with that in mind, you can actually discover some neat things.

For example, there's actually some fancy symbolism going on with the lightsabers in that trilogy. They're basically a visual cue for the progression of the characters. Luke starts out with the blue lightsaber he inherited from his father. The blue lightsaber represents the ideals of his jedi father before he became Darth Vader. Luke looks up to those ideals and so he wields his father's old weapon proudly.

Darth Vader one held up these ideals as well (illustrated by how the blue lightsaber once belonged to him), but he discarded them for the dark side. He starts using a red lightsaber, basically a corrupted form of his original weapon, symbolizing the corruption of his ideals.

Then in episode 2, Luke and Vader meet in battle. Luke confronts Vader, their ideals clash (literally, because this is a lightsaber battle), and because Luke lacks the maturity and conviction to accurately represent his ideals, Vader remains unfazed and wins. He then reveals to be Luke's father. Luke just breaks down. Everything he believed about his father and what he stands for has been a lie. He can no longer look up to his father. The ideals he tried to hold up just shatter, and to help cement that fact, this is also when his lightsaber is destroyed/lost.

Then comes episode 3. Luke has completed his jedi training and is much more secure than he has ever been. He has risen above the shame of his father, the betrayals of his old ideals. Luke has formed his own identity, reminiscent but independent of his father's. To visually represent this change, he now wields a green lightsaber, a weapon reminiscent but distinct from his father's. And in the end it is that identity, his own ideals, that allow him to redeem his father and destroy the empire.

Then a bunch of shit with Ewoks happens, buuut.... let's just ignore that!

Anyway, there is such a simple brilliance in that negligible detail, it's amazing if this was intentional. And it only works because the original trilogy is such a tightly self-contained story. This in turn is the reason why I am annoyed that outside of the original movies, red and green lightsabers are popping up everywhere. No! Bad! Those lightsabers are relevant to the characters that use them! If you put them everywhere in the hands of everyone, they lose their meaning

Sometimes less is just more in the long run.

 

[Dr. Javelin]

just because the lightsaber color had a deep significance for a couple of characters doesn't mean that other characters shouldn't be allowed to use them.

although i do agree that it would have been much more interesting if the jedi of old used only blue lightsabers and then luke's new jedi order used green lightsabers.

 

[Lin Beifong]

just because the lightsaber color had a deep significance for a couple of characters doesn't mean that other characters shouldn't be allowed to use them.

I guess that's where our opinions differ. If a specific thing has deep connotations behind it, you should not just thoughtlessly recycle it unless there's a good, meaningful reason. You cannot create a symbol and then take a shit on its meaning. Doing that is what I consider bad writing.

Personally I find it more interesting to think that every Jedi had their own custom weapon, and lightsabers were a Skywalker thing. It makes the weapon much more unique and cool. IIRC the original trilogy by itself never disproves that possibility.

 

[GalacticPetey]

But Obi-Wan does call it "the weapon of a Jedi" or something like that.

I agree. In the prequel trilogy, the Jedi felt less special. When everyone is super, no one is. The original trilogy kept the Jedi mysterious and limited, making them much more interesting. In the prequels, they felt like generic space samurai.

 

[Dr. Javelin]

then explain why obi-wan has a lightsaber

and why he explains that it is the weapon of a jedi, from a more civilized age

bleh ninja'd

 

[Lin Beifong]

But Obi-Wan does call it "the weapon of a Jedi" or something like that.

I agree. In the prequel trilogy, the Jedi felt less special. When everyone is super, no one is. The original trilogy kept the Jedi mysterious and limited, making them much more interesting. In the prequels, they felt like generic space samurai.

Nonono, he says something like "a weapon from a more civilized age", which does not mean they are exclusive to the Jedi, or even just strongly associated with them.

Really the only thing I remember that even comes close to defining the lightsaber as the de facto Jedi weapon is when the Emperor refers to Luke's lightsaber as "your Jedi weapon". But even that does not fully disprove the possibility I pointed out, because he could have just meant it like "Take the weapon you have chosen to wield as a Jedi".

then explain why obi-wan has a lightsaber

and why he explains that it is the weapon of a jedi, from a more civilized age

bleh ninja'd

Obi-Wan has a lightsaber because he was Anakin's close friend. If the lightsaber is a Skywalker thing, there could easily have been a moment where Anakin was like "You and I are like brothers. I want you to have this weapon I made for you". You know, because he was a good friend.

And also, he says it is the weapon of a Jedi because it literally is the weapon of Luke's Jedi father. If Obi-Wan and Anakin spent their lives fighting together as Jedi, and he and Anakin used lightsabers, then of course Obi-Wan would associate wielding a lightsaber with being a Jedi. That's how he and Anakin lived. That's why he says that, because it's how HE feels. It doesn't mean every Jedi used a lightsaber.

 

[Dr. Javelin]

Nonono, he says something like "a weapon from a more civilized age", which does not mean they are exclusive to the Jedi, or even just strongly associated with them.

I'm pretty certain that he says that it is "the weapon of a Jedi".

It looks to me like you saw the originals, came up with your own headcanon about lightsabers, and then were disappointed when you saw other Jedi using lightsabers. This happens all the time when a universe keeps growing. Some people just like the universe the way they saw it before the author revealed the full extent and prefer to keep their own headcanon.

I personally work with what they give me and try to adapt it to still work with my previous conclusions as much as possible.

 

[Lin Beifong]

Nonono, he says something like "a weapon from a more civilized age", which does not mean they are exclusive to the Jedi, or even just strongly associated with them.

I'm pretty certain that he says that it is "the weapon of a Jedi".

I addressed that. I gave you my impression of why Obi-Wan said that, and I feel like it is a psychologically sound reason.

It looks to me like you saw the originals, came up with your own headcanon about lightsabers, and then were disappointed when you saw other Jedi using lightsabers. This happens all the time when a universe keeps growing. Some people just like the universe the way they saw it before the author revealed the full extent and prefer to keep their own headcanon.

No, I actually saw the prequels before the original trilogy. I used to be completely ignorant of anything Star Wars until like... I don't know... let's say 2006. Then, several years later, I rewatched both trilogies and formed my opinion from there.

I felt like the prequels are a disjointed mess and fail to accurately establish a connection to the originals. To me they do not feel like the same world. I have trouble believing that Obi-Wan would remember the Anakin from the prequels as "a good friend". Obi-Wan explains that Anakin was an honorable Jedi who got himself tangled up in the dark side, but really all Anakin really was was an angry, jealous teenager with authority issues. It doesn't feel like a friendship, it feels like they're two people stuck with each other because of their job. The plot quickly unravels from there.

That's why I dismiss the prequels, because I cannot bring myself to believe that is how it happened. It just doesn't fit with the tone that was set in the original movies. I only created my headcanon version of what happened AFTER that, like, about a year and a half ago.

I don't actually know anything about the expanded universe (other than "Boba Fett survives"), which is why earlier I didn't say "EXPANDED UNIVERSE ALL CRAP THAT FANFIC SHIT NEVER HAPEN IN MAH STAR WURST", but rather "it COULD be canon but I can't tell because I don't know".

 

[Dr. Javelin]

If you only look at Episode II, then the Obi-Wan/Anakin relationship does seem ridiculous. Mostly because Anakin is a complete moron.

But in Episode III, we get to see much more of how Anakin was pretty honorable and at least in my opinion seemed to be a good person who made a lot of bad choices, mostly because he cares too much about people. Let's go through major decision he makes in Episode III.

1. Rescuing Obi-Wan from the buzz droids - If Anakin had followed the Jedi Code, he wouldn't have listened to his emotions and would have abandoned Obi-Wan to the droids in order to complete the mission. But you can clearly see how he disregards the Jedi way in order to make a good choice and save the life of his mentor. That's a long way from the angry, jealous teenager from Episode II.
2. Killing Count Dooku - It was a mixed decision that he clearly had doubts about. He only went through with it because he trusted Palpatine's advice, Palpatine being his mentor and all. And the leader of the Republic, which (in Anakin's mind, given that he doesn't believe in democracy (see Episode II for details)) gives him the right to say that he was too dangerous to be left alive. In my mind, this was due to Anakin placing too much trust in Palpatine.
3. Rescuing Obi-Wan (again) - And then he decides to disregard Palpatine's orders, this time in order to save someone he cares about - Obi-Wan. Palpatine orders him to leave Obi-Wan behind, but Anakin refuses. That's pretty honorable, at least in my view.
4. Inducted into the Jedi Council - Anakin visibly is upset that he is on the council but not a Master, which lends more credence to the idea that he's an angry teenager. Which he is...except for the fact that he later apologizes to Obi-Wan about it. That's a major mark of maturity, and a marked difference from the Anakin of Episode II.
5. Asked to spy on Palpatine - Again, he's upset about this not because he doesn't like the Council (although he doesn't) but because it goes against his own personal morals and asks him to betray one of his closest friends. I'd be pretty upset too if someone asked me to spy one one of my favorite people because they might be a threat to democracy. This is in part why he loses faith in the Jedi Council; even Obi-Wan makes sure to point out that he isn't asking Anakin to do this, the Council is.
6. Willing to learn about the dark side from Palpatine - As demonstrated before, Anakin doesn't care for the orthodox matters of the Jedi Council (a trait he learned from Obi-Wan, who learned it from Qui-Gon) who have forbidden learning the dark side at all. He sees Palpatine's knowledge of the dark side as odd, sure, but useful if he can save Padme from death.
7. Turning in Palpatine - After figuring out that Palpatine is indeed the Sith Master that they've been looking for, Anakin is visibly upset and rightfully angry. However, he has to consider that Palpatine does have knowledge that he wants to use to save Padme. For this reason, he wants Palpatine to be arrested, imprisoned, but still useful. Also, I think part of this decision is that he also feels guilty about murdering Count Dooku and wants to do the right thing this time.
8. Attacking Mace Windu to save Palpatine - And here's the biggest decision of them all. As Palpatine indeed points out, "You must choose!". Here Anakin is presented with a big decision - either support Mace Windu and the questionable motives of the Jedi Council, or support Palpatine and save his wife. It's a lose-lose - if he helps Windu, he feels like a traitor to the Republic and feels he has lost the knowledge that would allow him to save Padme. And it feels much more like murder. On the other hand, if he supports Palpatine, he has opened himself to evil but has shown himself loyal to both the Republic and his wife. Keep in mind that when he entered the room, Mace Windu was pointing a lightsaber at Palpatine, not the other way around. So he makes the difficult choice and decides that Palpatine, despite being evil, was also right about the Jedi trying to take over the Republic.
9. Storming the Jedi Temple - At this point, since Anakin has openly turned to the dark side, his emotions have gone haywire. He's determined (with Palpatine) that since the Jedi have tried to take over the Republic, they must be eliminated in order to preserve justice for the galaxy. The dark side allows him to overcome his inhibitions about killing children - because, after all, it's for the common good.
10. Murdering the Separatist leaders - Anakin clearly no longer has a problem with killing, and killing the Separatists is a huge step on the way to peace. Not really a difficult decision at this point.
11. Choking Padme - And here's another major decision. Because of his turning to the dark side in order to save her, Anakin believes that Padme should be impressed with his actions. But she isn't. She loves the old Anakin, the one who wouldn't murder children in the name of the Republic. And then Obi-Wan appears, and at this point Anakin believes that everyone he ever trusted in (the Jedi Council, Palpatine, and now Padme) have betrayed him. Which really sucks. I'd probably be pretty angry now, and you know what happens when you mix the dark side and anger.
12. Fighting Obi-Wan - And EVEN STILL, he has reservations about killing Obi-Wan. Because so far, Obi-Wan hasn't really proven to be a threat to the Republic. Obi-Wan had already expressed reservations about the Jedi Council's decision to spy on Palpatine, and hasn't really betrayed Anakin except that he stays against Palpatine. But Obi-Wan must do what he must, and kill Anakin in order to save the galaxy from the tyranny of the Sith. And Anakin, seeing that Obi-Wan holds true to the Jedi Order, decides that he, too, must be killed in order to save the galaxy from the tyranny of the Jedi. Which is why he chooses to fight him.

This is why I take issue with the idea of Anakin still being the angry, jealous teenager from Episode II. He makes all of these decisions for good (or at least to him) reasons.

tl;dr anakin isn't just an angry teenager in episode iii

 

[SonicMario]

If I may add something to 11 and 12. Anakin outright says he thought Padme was lying to him when he sees Obi-Wan, even saying she brought him here to kill him. (Some have speculated Anakin might have even thought Padme was having an affair with Obi-Wan, though I don't think the movie makes this clear)

 

[Lin Beifong]

Ok, but the main issue I had was that it doesn't really seem like Obi-Wan and Anakin are friends. I mean, ok, Anakin is forced to make difficult decisions, but I still don't see any sort of friendship being present here. Episode 2 was supposed to establish their great bond or something, and then episode 3 showed how it all went to shit. But because ep2 failed, there was never any friendship for ep3 to break.

And before this is mentioned, no, Anakin disobeying the code of the Jedi in order to save Obi-Wan doesn't solidify their friendship. It's not something Anakin does specifically because it is Obi-Wan, it's just Anakin's character quirk. He saves people from dying despite all consequences. He does that for everyone. He even does it for some random ass clone pilot earlier in the movie. Replace Obi-Wan with any other character. Replace him with Jar Jar Binks, Anakin would have still disobeyed the Jedi teachings in order to save a life.

So throughout all of that, Obi-Wan and Anakin still just seem like people reluctantly working together to me. I feel that nothing special happens between them. That's not what original episode 1 told me. If Obi-Wan would have said like "Your father... ehh... he was THAT guy." that would have made it more fitting, but he called him his friend. He reminisced about a friendship that, if I am to believe that the prequels tell the truth, never really existed.

I'm sorry, I just cannot warm up to this. You can like those movies and I won't think any less of you, but don't make me do it as well.

 

[Dr. Javelin]

Ok, but the main issue I had was that it doesn't really seem like Obi-Wan and Anakin are friends. I mean, ok, Anakin is forced to make difficult decisions, but I still don't see any sort of friendship being present here. Episode 2 was supposed to establish their great bond or something, and then episode 3 showed how it all went to shit. But because ep2 failed, there was never any friendship for ep3 to break.

The way I see it, Anakin wasn't friends with Obi-Wan until during the Clone Wars where Obi-Wan was able to see him as both an apprentice and a friend. You're right, he wasn't in Episode II.

But they have plenty of moments in Episode III where you can see that they are clearly more relaxed around each other, and have several witty exchanges that only friends can have. Which is why I think they are friends by the time Episode III rolls around.

And before this is mentioned, no, Anakin disobeying the code of the Jedi in order to save Obi-Wan doesn't solidify their friendship. It's not something Anakin does specifically because it is Obi-Wan, it's just Anakin's character quirk. He saves people from dying despite all consequences. He does that for everyone. He even does it for some random ass clone pilot earlier in the movie. Replace Obi-Wan with any other character. Replace him with Jar Jar Binks, Anakin would have still disobeyed the Jedi teachings in order to save a life.

No, he didn't save that clone pilot. He was going to, but Obi-Wan said "they are doing their job so we can do ours" and he didn't. So for some people he's willing to leave them behind, but others he isn't.

So throughout all of that, Obi-Wan and Anakin still just seem like people reluctantly working together to me. I feel that nothing special happens between them. That's not what original episode 1 told me. If Obi-Wan would have said like "Your father... ehh... he was THAT guy." that would have made it more fitting, but he called him his friend. He reminisced about a friendship that, if I am to believe that the prequels tell the truth, never really existed.

Episode II, you're right - they are working together pretty reluctantly. Except for when Anakin goes to rescue Obi-Wan. But even after that, they still clearly disagree on several things, like when Anakin decides to emulate Leroy Jenkins and charge at Count Dooku.

But Episode III is different. Much different.

I'm sorry, I just cannot warm up to this. You can like those movies and I won't think any less of you, but don't make me do it as well.

Oh don't worry, I still despise Episodes I and II. But Episode III is on the level of the original trilogy.

 

[yoshidude99]

Just because something is cool, doesn't make it canon.

I like Broly, that does not make him canon to the Dragon ball universe though.

no i'm pretty sure you're just being elitist and ignoring all of the good star wars EU canon just to ignore the bad EU canon.

i mean seriously all of these characters deserve to be canon simply on account of their awesomeness. and part of why i'm mad at disney is it's highly unlikely luke will marry mara jade now, and they'll probably replace her with someone less awesome. which sucks, because luke x mara was one of the best battle couples out there.

i highly doubt they'll produce a female lead more awesome than mara jade.

Agree on that one. She was one of Timothy Zhan's best creations

 

[GalacticPetey]

Oh don't worry, I still despise Episodes I and II. But Episode III is on the level of the original trilogy.

I agree with you on I and II, Both films are just so dull and uninteresting. The only redeeming grace in these movies were Darth Maul, Dooku, and the music. John Williams is a fantastic composer and his scores are phenomenal.

Episode III is much better. I like it just a little less than original trilogy.

 

[Stargatedalek]

Grievous for me was the best part of the prequel trilogy

 

[Rise Up Above It]

Grievous for me was the best part of the prequel trilogy

yessssss

 

[Zae]

Grievous for me was the best part of the prequel trilogy

grevious was the only thing i liked about the prequels.

Then again i didnt even like all 3 of the original trilogy.