Unpopular opinions about the Mario series

eh, it just feels unproductive. we know where everyone stands, we know what everyone thinks, the views will never change, and it means that literally any time someone mentions SPM in this board the same stuff starts up. i've had people tell me they actively avoid bringing up certain games because they don't want to spark the perpetual debate

anyhow wario needs to be knuckles, this is not up for debate
 
MiracleDinner said:
See my comment under "John's semi-professional opinions."

The extent to which I like any game is influenced by personal biases, but objective judgements are attempts to step away from that bias as much as possible and consider the dev's choices and the properties of the game that make it fulfilling from a rational and less biased perspective. Whilst a human being such as myself could never achieve a perfectly objective judgement, as we cannot help being at least slightly biased, I do not view trying as either impossible or insensible.
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You shouldn't try to step away from your biases. That's impossible. Instead, acknowledge your biases first and then try to be reasonable by supporting them with either facts or good reasoning and be aware of faults in human reasoning. "Objective judgements" aren't possible at all. You can try to be as "neutral" as possible but you'll never escape your biases, but what matters more is being fair by examining all relevant (relevancy also being subjective) facts presented *especially* looking critically at those that confirm your biases, as we're all naturally less inclined to object to things we agree with compared to things we disagree with. Not checking with elements that disconfirm your hypothesis is how flawed opinions form (particularly confirmation bias) and lead to arguably bad takes such as "Mario is mental". Those judgements are ultimately opinions formed from examining what the facts are, comparing experiences with one another, then reasoning, then arriving at a conclusion based on those.

Hibiki Tachibana said:
my unpopular opinion is that i'm pretty sure we've all heard this conversation a hundred times before in this board

do we really need to hear it again, i ask of everyone involved
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I don't see a need to police conversation based on how many times it's discussed and brought up. As long as a fanbase remains large, attracts new people, and has disagreeing opinions, there's always going to be new people who express the same opinions from time to time which shouldn't be ignored or just have no response? I also feel I've advanced away from discussing about RPGs now and am talking more about how to form reasonable opinions, which as long as cognitive biases exist, remain as nice advice. There are tons of recurring debate material throughout this forum (Mario Kart roster and gameplay complaints, Super Smash Bros. roster discussion, Mario platforming complaints including character line-up like Waluigi Wario Daisy Donkey Kong, Mario Party complaints). It's just that how MaRPG/Mario platforming stories are handled tend to be lengthier due to such a broad net it covers and is an ongoing source of contention throughout the entire series, so I expect that conversation to exist probably as long as the Mario series is a thing.

That's fine. I don't see the problem. It promotes activity, it promotes discussion, encourages engagement in the community (which can promote new members sticking around and adding their opinions or sharing their experiences outside of the contentious debate zone) and the discussion here has been pretty okay and worth a read even if it's debated already.
 
Personally, I find it stimulating, even if it is repetitive and people aren't inherently going to flip sides on a debate. Even though I harp on it, I like thinking about its plot and researching about it, as well as talking about other fantastic games I adore. Hell, I didn't even know Kefka nor Final Fantasy 6 all that well, so I read about him and a synopsis on his role in Final Fantasy 6 in Wikipedia and I learned something out of it!

It is just an unpopular opinion of mine, though. And on a personal level, let's just say I had been there before. I used to think Mario needed extended plot to its games, but it was something that shed off me as the years went on.

You're speaking to someone who bought a game only to tussle with the modding tools for hours long and straight JUST to play as a Mario character who just looks and sounds different from the base character, after all. So many games I've modded. GTA V, Left 4 Dead 2, Mario Kart 8 Deluxe, Super Smash Bros. Ultimate....fuck I'm losing track of the games I've tinkered with...Sonic Adventure 2 is next on that list btw
 
Hibiki Tachibana said:
anyhow wario needs to be knuckles, this is not up for debate
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How the hell would Wario fly around? Farting?

Oh..mods.

I could do it but modding SA2 is A PAIN. I'll tell you that right now.
 
The Sunshine Mario doesn't come with voice clips or a ball roll model and the import was done by someone else. My sister and I did the in-game voice clips (my twin picked the voice clips, I packed them together, cutscene voice clips is a different story). I also cribbed some assets from another person 64's model, Mario glows red when he jumps.

I had done imports over Knuckles, Tails, and Rouge though.
 
If the people are being civil I see no reason to discontinue the discussion.

Besides the discussion involves someone who I believe is relatively new here so there is potential new perspectives to be learned and shared.
 
Oh god, people are going to request me to do Waluigi over Rogue next.
 
Mcmadness said:
someone who I believe is relatively new here
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Do you mean me?

LeftyGreenMario said:
You can try to be as "neutral" as possible but you'll never escape your biases
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I admitted that, but I don't see a problem with trying. I mean sort of one reason I support the idea of objective judgements even if they can never be perfect, say someone said Super Mario Galaxy is the worst Mario game (and assume they have played all of them) then I'm obviously in a way tempted to say "you're wrong" but actually, they have the right to like it the least out of all Mario games, but whether you like playing it or not, there's no doubt that it represents a great leap forward in graphical power next to Sunshine, and that there were some very popular gameplay additions, and the story contains more content than Super Mario 64. Ergo, if there's a Mario game I personally don't enjoy playing but "objectively" judge as well-made and holding up well to this day if it is significantly old, I won't say "it's an awful game, don't play this", I'll say "I didn't enjoy this game and here's why, but I credit the devs on so and so and I think it should be appealing to most people so I'm still going to recommend it."

I'm certainly not trying to say "what I think is objectively right and everyone else is objectively wrong".

Hibiki Tachibana said:
eh, it just feels unproductive. we know where everyone stands, we know what everyone thinks, the views will never change, and it means that literally any time someone mentions SPM in this board the same stuff starts up. i've had people tell me they actively avoid bringing up certain games because they don't want to spark the perpetual debate
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I mean that's sort of why I'm saying we need to decide what the aim of this discussion is. However it's actually quite interesting as this is the first time I've encountered a person who sincerely despised the plot of Super Paper Mario and it's interesting to hear why. But my love for SPM will likely never change.

MiracleDinner said:
Well my life is quite busy right now but I'll have to write a rather long response to that.
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To be honest I don't feel like doing that anymore but I will say that a lot of your criticisms was the fact that SPM leaves many things unexplained. Taking Dimentio for example, sure I would have loved to have known his origins, but he's still an epic villain to me and he's deeper than I would expect from most Mario games, even if he's rather shallow in the wider world of RPGs. The thing is that if I were to try FF6 (don't have a SNES though and it's not on VC) or sth sure I might like it but I just don't feel I could attach myself to it as much as Mario. Even Ocarina of Time, a Nintendo RPG which I do like, just isn't the same.

Baby Luigi Rescuing Mario said:
How the hell would Wario fly around? Farting?

Oh..mods.

I could do it but modding SA2 is A PAIN. I'll tell you that right now.
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Don't forget that double posting within three days is not approved of on this board.
 
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Honestly I think the bigger issue with Super Paper Mario is that a lot of its chapters are gimmicky and unfun, it's the main reason I don't revisit it as much as the previous two games.

Look at Chapter 3 in Paper Mario: The Thousand-Year Door, where you have to participate in back to back fights with special conditions. That's a fun change of pace.

Now look at Chapter 2-3 in Super Paper Mario, where you have to do one of two repetitive tasks to earn Rubees to pay off your debt, and pay off those Rubees to other people (one of which is in 3D with no indication of how to find him if memory serves) to get a password to cheat the system and get a million Rubees from the vault. That's not a fun change of pace.

Look at Chapter 6 in Paper Mario: The Thousand-Year Door, where battling enemies takes a backseat to solving mysteries on a train. That's a fun change of pace.

Now look at Chapter 6 in Super Paper Mario, where you need to do 100 repetitive battles consecutively with little variance between them, except it stops halfway because the Void sucks in that world and now you need to continually walk in one direction for like six minutes. That's not a fun change of pace.

I still like a lot of Super Paper Mario's locations on a conceptual and visual level, but some of them are real unfun to play through.
 
Pokerninja2 said:
Now look at Chapter 2-3 in Super Paper Mario, where you have to do one of two repetitive tasks to earn Rubees to pay off your debt, and pay off those Rubees to other people (one of which is in 3D with no indication of how to find him if memory serves) to get a password to cheat the system and get a million Rubees from the vault. That's not a fun change of pace.
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I mean true I always disliked that but I almost always just look up the code since my 1st playthrough. And you know what? I don't even like playing this game that much any more, but even when the gameplay is at its worst, I play through it because the story, characters, locations, emotions, and music are so worth it to me.

Pokerninja2 said:
Look at Chapter 6 in Paper Mario: The Thousand-Year Door, where battling enemies takes a backseat to solving mysteries on a train. That's a fun change of pace.
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I found that chapter really boring since the story wasn't that good and the gameplay was inexistent apart from the Smorg battle and Riverside station. But again, I play through the worst of TTYD's level design as well because it's still a masterpiece in a lot of ways to me.

Pokerninja2 said:
Now look at Chapter 6 in Super Paper Mario, where you need to do 100 repetitive battles consecutively with little variance between them, except it stops halfway
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The dialogue made it worthwhile imo, plus it's actually only 20 that are compulsory. I did all 100 for my own amusement.
Pokerninja2 said:
you need to continually walk in one direction for like six minutes. That's not a fun change of pace.
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It's actually only about 90 seconds with Carrie, and first time round that sort of had its effect in that you see how desolate and destroyed the world is and it's just nothing for a little bit before you get your cool hypnotised Luigi in a giant anthropomorphic robot boss fight. On subsequent playthroughs, sure, I wish I could just teleport to the end instantly, but I don't mind a slight temporary annoyance in the greatest gaming experience I have had to this day.

Pokerninja2 said:
I still like a lot of Super Paper Mario's locations on a conceptual and visual level, but some of them are real unfun to play through.
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Agreed, but it's worth the good for the bad imo. No game is perfect and Super Paper Mario is no exception, but the things this game does right are enough to make it my favourite even if the level design was downright horrible some of the time.
 
My unpopular opinion is that Woody is the most compelling and deepest Mario franchise character and nothing will change my opinion on that.
 
MiracleDinner said:
I mean true I always disliked that but I almost always just look up the code since my 1st playthrough.
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Well I didn't get that luxury on my first playthrough, and I'm sure there's many others that didn't either, so my first experience with that part of the game is what I'll always remember as one of the most confusing and repetitive parts of my history with this franchise.
MiracleDinner said:
I found that chapter really boring since the story wasn't that good and the gameplay was inexistent apart from the Smorg battle and Riverside station. But again, I play through the worst of TTYD's level design as well because it's still a masterpiece in a lot of ways to me.
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To each their own by I found the dialogue and the different situations Mario and friends get roped in funny enough to compromise. Pennington also reminds me of the Bumpty NPCs in Shiver City from the first Paper Mario (obviously) so that's a plus.
MiracleDinner said:
The dialogue made it worthwhile imo, plus it's actually only 20 that are compulsory. I did all 100 for my own amusement.

It's actually only about 90 seconds with Carrie, and first time round that sort of had its effect in that you see how desolate and destroyed the world is and it's just nothing for a little bit before you get your cool hypnotised Luigi in a giant anthropomorphic robot boss fight. On subsequent playthroughs, sure, I wish I could just teleport to the end instantly, but I don't mind a slight temporary annoyance in the greatest gaming experience I have had to this day.
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I do like the Sammer Guys' names and what they say before every match, but that still doesn't make my (and probably everyone else's) strategy of pushing them to the side of the screen and spamming Bowser's fire breath.

Also I do like how they tried to make it clear what the Void was capable of doing and showing a world that it destroyed, but I do think it could have been more interesting to navigate. Why does it have to be a flat line? Why can't it have a bunch of bumps and obstacles from the destroyed buildings you need to navigate around. It's just kind of tedious no matter how you slice it. The Mr. L battle at the end is good though, probably one of my favorites in the game now that I think about it.
MiracleDinner said:
Agreed, but it's worth the good for the bad imo. No game is perfect and Super Paper Mario is no exception, but the things this game does right are enough to make it my favourite even if the level design was downright horrible some of the time.
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Super Paper Mario does a lot of things right and whenever I do play through it I often have fun doing it, it's just that it has issues that keep me from replaying it as much as Paper Mario or Paper Mario: The Thousand-Year Door.
 
Pokerninja2 said:
Also I do like how they tried to make it clear what the Void was capable of doing and showing a world that it destroyed, but I do think it could have been more interesting to navigate. Why does it have to be a flat line? Why can't it have a bunch of bumps and obstacles from the destroyed buildings you need to navigate around. It's just kind of tedious no matter how you slice it. The Mr. L battle at the end is good though, probably one of my favorites in the game now that I think about it.
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I think the point of it is to showcase desolation, devastation and isolation caused by the Void, like a post-apocalytpic scenario or like when Squidward becomes ALONE in SB-125 in Spongebob, but they ended up making it like driving through a drive-over state on the Great Plains instead. I've played games with heavy, remorse atmosphere rife with destruction and abandonment, how you spend your time walking through the destroyed Sammer Kingdom is NOT how you do it: they really need to shorten the time you spend walking through a black line and a white background, because you already sorta got the point by now.
 
Pokerninja2 said:
Bumpty NPCs in Shiver City from the first Paper Mario
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Haven't played that game so no spoilers please.
Pokerninja2 said:
I do like the Sammer Guys' names and what they say before every match, but that still doesn't make my (and probably everyone else's) strategy of pushing them to the side of the screen and spamming Bowser's fire breath.
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I would've won the tournament a lot easier if I did that but for the sake of not making it too easy for myself I varied up the tactics, though with the level I was at by that point having beaten Shadoo it was still easy.
Baby Luigi Rescuing Mario said:
they really need to shorten the time you spend walking through a black line and a white background, because you already sorta got the point by now.
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Agreed
Pokerninja2 said:
Super Paper Mario does a lot of things right and whenever I do play through it I often have fun doing it, it's just that it has issues that keep me from replaying it as much as Paper Mario or Paper Mario: The Thousand-Year Door.
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OK I understand. I'm not sure if I can say the same for myself having not played PM64 and my first playthrough of TTYD having started less than 1yr ago but ask me in a decade 'K?

(lmao never realised how fun it is to talk like nastasia)
 
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You should play the first one. It's really great, and it remains to be my favorite Paper Mario game. It won't have the same focused story as Super Paper Mario, but it has enough to get you invested in it. And for its time, Bowser beating Mario and seeing increased interactions with him and Peach really was something special.
 
Baby Luigi Rescuing Mario said:
You should play the first one. It's really great, and it remains to be my favorite Paper Mario game. It won't have the same focused story as Super Paper Mario, but it has enough to get you invested in it. And for its time, Bowser beating Mario and seeing increased interactions with him and Peach really was something special.
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I know I've bought it on my Wii U VC and really want to play it but my life is busy as hell rn.
 
MiracleDinner said:
(lmao never realised how fun it is to talk like nastasia)
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Nastasia is one of the few OCs that I like in Super Paper Mario. I also like the way she casually talks when she beats characters, and she definitely works as the straight character to the rest of them.

"Yeah, uh, I'm going to like, super hypnotize you now. 'K?"
 
the only chapter I disliked in SPM was the heaven chapter. But that's because I kept getting lost and it was way too huge for its own good. I kept having moments of "Okay how far back do I have to go this time?" and it was really frustrating.
 
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