Unpopular opinions about the Mario series

No I'm saying that I'm annoyed that I saw an internet spoiler about Bowser and Antasma but that was before I read your post so don't worry.

I mean I can't stop people from discussing sensitive information about games anywhere on SM boards but if it's clearly a discussion involving someone who hasn't played it then I'd take a bit of care.

Oh right forgot the use of spoiler tags. How do you use them?
 
You can just type the word spoiler between square brakets [like so] and close the spoiler [/like so], except you type spoiler instead of "like so".

Ok, unpopular opinion time...

I agree that TTYD is a game that deserves a lot of praise, and I agree with the fact that it's a pretty good game.

But what makes the game so good is not at all the story. NOT AT ALL. It's no terrible story, mind you, but... it's not exactly what I'd call a story to shatter the earth and sky, really. If anything, it borrows a lot from its predecessor and many times, it feels to me like it's being a bit too "epic" for my tastes. The ONLY. I repeat, ONLY thing that makes this game really as enjoyable as it is to me is the gameplay.

Also, I can't stress it enough, the party members needed to have some dialogue together, instead of acting like Mario's braindead bodyguards. I mean, I shouldn't bring FE into this but it was made by the same company as specifically Paper Mario and it has a mechanic that lets your characters interact, and they should've made use of it somehow here. The only character that I fealt really got some development was Vivian, really. And all she has is starting out on the enemy side.

So yeah. TTYD's real claim to fame in my opinion is pretty much its core gameplay, mainly the battle system. The bosses are pretty good.
 
Nah the story was great. I prefer SPM's, but given how shallow most Mario games are, I'm glad to see an epic quest to a treasure in an ancient underground city, which:

Turns out to be an almighty ancient demon who kills Grodus and possesses Peach so you have to use the Crystal stars to stop her overthrowing the world

As for the partners I sort of agree with you in that they did not have enough dialogue together but they were still very relateable and they made me feel like the adventure had a sense of progress and familiarity.

I actually played this game before Paper Mario 1 which I still haven't played.
 
Fiora said:
You can just type the word spoiler between square brakets [like so] and close the spoiler [/like so], except you type spoiler instead of "like so".

Ok, unpopular opinion time...

I agree that TTYD is a game that deserves a lot of praise, and I agree with the fact that it's a pretty good game.

But what makes the game so good is not at all the story. NOT AT ALL. It's no terrible story, mind you, but... it's not exactly what I'd call a story to shatter the earth and sky, really. If anything, it borrows a lot from its predecessor and many times, it feels to me like it's being a bit too "epic" for my tastes. The ONLY. I repeat, ONLY thing that makes this game really as enjoyable as it is to me is the gameplay.

Also, I can't stress it enough, the party members needed to have some dialogue together, instead of acting like Mario's braindead bodyguards. I mean, I shouldn't bring FE into this but it was made by the same company as specifically Paper Mario and it has a mechanic that lets your characters interact, and they should've made use of it somehow here. The only character that I fealt really got some development was Vivian, really. And all she has is starting out on the enemy side.

So yeah. TTYD's real claim to fame in my opinion is pretty much its core gameplay, mainly the battle system. The bosses are pretty good.
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You can't even call it opinion, it's a fact that this game's story is really nothing special by the rpg genre standards.
 
I mean everyone seems to mainly praise it for its story so I thought it was justified to post that here.
 
Mcmadness said:
You can't even call it opinion, it's a fact that this game's story is really nothing special by the rpg genre standards.
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uh, it is an opinion

for example, i think partners in time has the best story ever made because it involves Baby Luigi killing a race of aliens
 
I know I'm not denying anyone the right not to be entertained by TTYD's story I'm saying why I am and that even without my personal bias it is a deep plot for a Mario game.
 
what happened in ttyd again? i know HAL 9000 appears in it except he's horny now.
 
But the partners do get unique dialogue throughout the game when talking to both main & side npc's. They do go through their whole plot development though on their own specific chapters that is true (except the above mentioned Vivian who sort of has plot multi-chapter), but there is some variant in npc chats depending on which partner you have out.
 
Even then you have to have them out so they do that which sucks. If you just stick to one guy no one else is ever gonna talk. Not that this talking adds to their character. It's pretty much "This is X partner talking".
 
I mostly just kept goombella out regardless. I found her to be the most practical partner.
 
Mcmadness said:
I mostly just kept goombella out regardless. I found her to be the most practical partner.
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Finally, someone agrees. I've always felt that enemy tattles are an indispensable tool for new enemies, and that field tattles are an important part of the game's overall personality. The other partners always felt more like situational tools than actual characters (although at least it's not as bad as SPM, where they're all situational tools with no personality).

And to clarify, I hold the same opinion of Goombario from PM1 compared to the other partners.
 
YoshiFlutterJump said:
where they're all situational tools with no personality
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I said earlier, the pixls barring Tippi are NOT your real partners, Peach Bowser Tippi and Luigi ARE. I always found these partners much more relatable, emotional, and charming than those in TTYD, and better suited to the game's plotline. I especially praise Tippi's development as she regains her memory and

finds herself in a very difficult emotional dilemma surrounding Blumiere, but eventually forgives him for all his evil and still holds him dear to her in her heart. Also the sacrifices that Peach, Bowser, and Luigi make over the course of Chapter 8 finally to be ended by Bowser yelling "You never give up this easy when you attack MY castle!"

It was very humorous also to see Bowser set aside his differences and voluntarily work with Mario, Luigi, and Peach, the last of which he still calls his wife. Also this is in a relative minority of Mario games which places Peach in an active role, as well as the only Paper Mario game to do so I believe.

At the very least I am almost certain it is better than Sticker Star, which although i haven't played, I know from several internet sources that it only has one partner, Kersti, whom most people seem to hate.
 
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I actually think the Pixls were better character wise than the actual partners.

At least by looking at a Pixl you don't expect them to have a personality.
 
They did have cool personalities but the sheer lack of dialogue they had prevented them from being anywhere near the same level as those from TTYD or Peach+Bowser+Luigi+Tippi from SPM.

I haven't played PM64 but I'm optimistic for the partners in there.

Sticker Star and Color Splash on the other hand....
🤬😡🥵😥😱😰😨😭😤😠
 
MiracleDinner said:
Sticker Star and Color Splash on the other hand....
🤬😡🥵😥😱😰😨😭😤😠
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You might not like Kersti but don't throw Color Splash into that lump because Huey is a genuinely great character.

Also you give SPM's partners too much credit, all main party members except Tippi were pre-established characters with personalities already set in stone. Tippi has some pretty great character development but she's really the only one.
 
YoshiFlutterJump said:
You might not like Kersti but don't throw Color Splash into that lump because Huey is a genuinely great character.

Also you give SPM's partners too much credit, all main party members except Tippi were pre-established characters with personalities already set in stone. Tippi has some pretty great character development but she's really the only one.
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Yeah I've heard good things about Huey but I doubt he'll be good enough to compare to TTYD or SPM

I stand by my praise to SPM's partners. Tippi is probably THE best partner out of all the Mario games I have played. As for the others, they were genuinely excellent, they stay true to their presentation to their roles in other games and build on them in lots of other ways. Having Bowser and Peach as major protagonists and playable characters at the same time is quite rare in the Mario franchise (though by no means a one off) and Luigi was really cool and brave especially in 8-3. Sure the latter three weren't entirely original like the partners in the first two but considering how non-Mario 90% of this game feels like I'm not complaining. As I have said in this thread previously, they feel like a sole point of familiarity, comfort, and humour in a highly atmospheric strange world.
 
MiracleDinner said:
I stand by my praise to SPM's partners. Tippi is probably THE best partner out of all the Mario games I have played. As for the others, they were genuinely excellent, they stay true to their presentation to their roles in other games and build on them in lots of other ways. Having Bowser and Peach as major protagonists and playable characters at the same time is quite rare in the Mario franchise (though by no means a one off) and Luigi was really cool and brave especially in 8-3. Sure the latter three weren't entirely original like the partners in the first two but considering how non-Mario 90% of this game feels like I'm not complaining. As I have said in this thread previously, they feel like a sole point of familiarity, comfort, and humour in a highly atmospheric strange world.
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I think you misunderstood my point. I think it's a great thing that they used established characters as partners. But I also think that it's an unfair advantage when comparing them to other partners in the series. Of course they're great; they had more than one game to develop a personality in.
 
Huey is proof Intelligent Systems can still write good original PM characters but arbitrarily limit themselves to just the mouthpiece of the week. He is a great character and IMO could fit as a partner in a traditional PM game.
 
Fiora said:
Also, I can't stress it enough, the party members needed to have some dialogue together, instead of acting like Mario's braindead bodyguards. I mean, I shouldn't bring FE into this but it was made by the same company as specifically Paper Mario and it has a mechanic that lets your characters interact, and they should've made use of it somehow here. The only character that I fealt really got some development was Vivian, really. And all she has is starting out on the enemy side.

So yeah. TTYD's real claim to fame in my opinion is pretty much its core gameplay, mainly the battle system. The bosses are pretty good.
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This is why I prefer Mario & Luigi over Paper Mario. Luigi's a far more interesting party member. Heck, Luigi being a party member is why Mario & Luigi are so loved, since it lends to so many opportunities of siblings messing with each other.

And this is also where Mario's lack of dialogue comes to hurt other characters. Sure, it's a frequent complaint by me that Mario's silent nature is bad for Mario but I'd argue it's bad for Mario's friends too. Since Mario can't really interact besides simple nods and gestures and player responses, partners just can't say much if they're out only one at a time, and they can't develop as Mario doesn't develop either. They might as well talk to themselves or make dumb one-liner quips that adds nothing to the event. It's really awkward. It's offputting when you think about it. So, if partners have dialogue together, with whom? There's quite a few of them. It'll be fine if Koops and Goombella talked to each other, but there's still that problem of Mario just standing there and staring and there's way too many combinations of partners to make dialogue flow coherently. And since there's quite a few of them scattered in the game, there's basically little chance for the latter party members to have development unless they're already early in the game. Only the two Goombas really have more than short quips outside their chapters but even then, they're just souped up flavor text.

There's a huge advantage in using established characters in that they already have interacted with Mario a lot of times so we know what to expect from them, and they can still be developed as with the others. Partner personality are pretty much limited to the chapter they're in and I think people are overstating their personalities. People like partners probably for their design, function, and their little arc, but they don't offer much beyond that.
 
YoshiFlutterJump said:
Finally, someone agrees. I've always felt that enemy tattles are an indispensable tool for new enemies, and that field tattles are an important part of the game's overall personality.
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Oh same, I liked to use her tattle on EVERYTHING. Honestly her and Goombario might have some unintended character growth just by their narrations. Also worth mentioning on their usefulness, when you unlock their infinite headbonks
 
YoshiFlutterJump said:
I think you misunderstood my point. I think it's a great thing that they used established characters as partners. But I also think that it's an unfair advantage when comparing them to other partners in the series. Of course they're great; they had more than one game to develop a personality in.
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I'm not sure. Mario plots tend to be very shallow and Mario is "the hero who defeats the bad guy and saves the princess." Peach is "the princess who gets kidnapped and whom needs to be saved." Bowser is "the evil guy who steals the princess but always loses to the hero." and Luigi is "the brother who accompanies the hero."

I adore the Mario RPGs for the ways that they build on these fundamental outlines and make them much more fleshed out characters, often in different ways - in Superstar Saga he lost his memory and then got possessed, in BIS he goes around doing powerful stuff whilst Mario and Luigi are unknowingly helping him all along inside his body. And with SPM being my first Mario RPG (followed closely by BIS and then not TTYD until years later) this was a very welcome suprise coming out a game which looked like nothing more than a gimmicky shallow platformer with papery graphics.

LeftyGreenMario said:
This is why I prefer Mario & Luigi over Paper Mario. Luigi's a far more interesting party member. Heck, Luigi being a party member is why Mario & Luigi are so loved, since it lends to so many opportunities of siblings messing with each other.
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TTYD's Luigi was pretty good. SPM's was godly. Don't know about PM64 but apparently SS reduced him to a cameo and CS didn't do much with him either.

I find that the interactions between the bros. and the progression of the plot with both of the brothers as central protagonists who are rarely separated, it's good, but it's not as good as TTYD or SPM.

LeftyGreenMario said:
And this is also where Mario's lack of dialogue comes to hurt other characters. Sure, it's a frequent complaint by me that Mario's silent nature is bad for Mario but I'd argue it's bad for Mario's friends too. Since Mario can't really interact besides simple nods and gestures and player responses, partners just can't say much if they're out only one at a time, and they can't develop as Mario doesn't develop either. They might as well talk to themselves or make dumb one-liner quips that adds nothing to the event. It's really awkward. It's offputting when you think about it. So, if partners have dialogue together, with whom? There's quite a few of them. It'll be fine if Koops and Goombella talked to each other, but there's still that problem of Mario just standing there and staring and there's way too many combinations of partners to make dialogue flow coherently.
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I always thought Mario's lack of dialogue made Paper Mario sort of special. Because e.g. his conversation with Vivian in TTYD Ch4 amongst many others suggests that the other characters can understand him but the player doesn't have direct knowledge of what he says, which makes for a unique presentation.

TTYD has some excellent character devlopment. When Mario starts the adventure, he is just an unknown no-one in an unexplored world. But he traverses through it and gains several friends, becomes famous, and saves the world, and when you leave everyone is sad to see him go, but things have turned full circle and you go back to the Mushroom Kingdom. This is powerfully echoed in the music, with "Mail for the Mario Bros." being played only in the intro and the ending, and "Farewell Rogueport" and "Last Look at Rogueport" being remixes of the intro story theme. I played the TTYD credits theme at a talk of mine I gave last Monday and it was even better than the last time, it truly does echo the sad yet also pleasant remembrance of an epic adventure.

And in SPM you always have Tippi out which allows her to be a far more potent partner than any of those in TTYD imo. And if you play as Bowser, Peach, or Luigi, they get extra dialogue as well, or if you play as Mario, more for Tippi. And there are several compulsory cutscenes in which all party members have to speak (e.g. after Bowser is beaten the first time, one of my favourites) which allows for much more interesting development and presentation.
Nossie said:
Oh same, I liked to use her tattle on EVERYTHING. Honestly her and Goombario might have some unintended character growth just by their narrations. Also worth mentioning on their usefulness, when you unlock their infinite headbonks
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Yes the tattles certainly do make Goombella and Tippi more powerful characters. Can't speak for Goombario yet though. However the Multibonk is not actually infinite, like the Power Bounce it actually has a cap on how many you can do which depends on RNG as well as what enemy you're fighting.
 
MiracleDinner said:
SPM's was godly.
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Luigi in SPM was terrible. I mean Mr L is a funny novelty for a bit but this game was the most Luigi has ever done in this series and he spends most of it not as himself and is only around party wise for 2 chapters, one of which you don't even get to use him for the finale.
 
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