General Discussion

[Lumastar]

Since Shadow Mario is likely Pianissimo II in Mario Gold: Toadstool Tour, he should have his own page as he is an alias used by two characters.

 

[Ray Trace]

Since Shadow Mario is likely Pianissimo II in Mario Gold: Toadstool Tour, he should have his own page as he is an alias used by two characters.

The Il Piantissimio thing is mostly speculation so it's not a strong reason to keep them separate

 

[Lumastar]

Since Shadow Mario is likely Pianissimo II in Mario Gold: Toadstool Tour, he should have his own page as he is an alias used by two characters.

The Il Piantissimio thing is mostly speculation so it's not a strong reason to keep them separate

Shadow Mario is still an alternate alias who has been seen with Bowser Jr.

 

[Lee Chaolan]

Since Shadow Mario is likely Pianissimo II in Mario Gold: Toadstool Tour, he should have his own page as he is an alias used by two characters.

The Il Piantissimio thing is mostly speculation so it's not a strong reason to keep them separate

That logic doesn't even make sense. How is the paintbrush supposed to turn him into Shadow Mario? I was under the impression that it was the Mask.


As for the separation matter, if they are designed for spoiler alert, it might be worth considering. The fact that he appeared as a separate character doesn't mean anything, as proved with Gold Mario argument.

 

[Lumastar]

Since Shadow Mario is likely Pianissimo II in Mario Gold: Toadstool Tour, he should have his own page as he is an alias used by two characters.

The Il Piantissimio thing is mostly speculation so it's not a strong reason to keep them separate

That logic doesn't even make sense. How is the paintbrush supposed to turn him into Shadow Mario? I was under the impression that it was the Mask.


As for the separation matter, if they are designed for spoiler alert, it might be worth considering. The fact that he appeared as a separate character doesn't mean anything, as proved with Gold Mario argument.

Shadow Mario was introduced as a separate character in Super Mario Sunshine and is still a separate alias of Bowser Jr. and possibly Pianissimo II (like Mr. L). Gold Mario is a power-up for Mario that was included in Mario Golf: World Tour as a bonus for buying all three DLC packs. I would also like to point out that Shadow Mario's article is much more expansive than most other articles that were merged with other articles. Finally, Shadow Mario's stats in Mario Golf: Toadstool Tour are different than Mario (unlike Gold Mario).

 

[Vommack]

I would also like to point out that Shadow Mario's article is much more expansive than most other articles that were merged with other articles.

.... That doesn't support anything.

 

[Lumastar]

I would also like to point out that Shadow Mario's article is much more expansive than most other articles that were merged with other articles.

.... That doesn't support anything.

It shows that there is enough information on Shadow Mario for him to be given the treatment of an individual character on the wiki even if he is an alternate alias of Bowser Jr.

 

[Vommack]

I would also like to point out that Shadow Mario's article is much more expansive than most other articles that were merged with other articles.

.... That doesn't support anything.

It shows that there is enough information on Shadow Mario for him to be given the treatment of an individual character on the wiki even if he is an alternate alias of Bowser Jr.

And there's enough info out there for us to write an article on the complete history of Hyrule, but that doesn't mean we should make such an article.

 

[Lumastar]

I would also like to point out that Shadow Mario's article is much more expansive than most other articles that were merged with other articles.

.... That doesn't support anything.

It shows that there is enough information on Shadow Mario for him to be given the treatment of an individual character on the wiki even if he is an alternate alias of Bowser Jr.

And there's enough info out there for us to write an article on the complete history of Hyrule, but that doesn't mean we should make such an article.

Merging Shadow Mario with Bowser Jr. would be like merging Mr. L with Luigi.

 

[Vommack]

Merging Shadow Mario with Bowser Jr. would be like merging Mr. L with Luigi.

Mr. L clearly has enough of a different personality to separate him from Luigi. Shadow Mario behaves the same way as Bowser Jr. would.

 

[Lumastar]

Merging Shadow Mario with Bowser Jr. would be like merging Mr. L with Luigi.

Mr. L clearly has enough of a different personality to separate him from Luigi. Shadow Mario behaves the same way as Bowser Jr. would.

If they were separate characters, Shadow Mario would be far more important to Super Mario Sunshine's plot than Bowser Jr.

 

[Vommack]

Merging Shadow Mario with Bowser Jr. would be like merging Mr. L with Luigi.

Mr. L clearly has enough of a different personality to separate him from Luigi. Shadow Mario behaves the same way as Bowser Jr. would.

If they were separate characters, Shadow Mario would be far more important to Super Mario Sunshine's plot than Bowser Jr.

That's if they were. But the fact of the matter is, they're the same person.

 

[Lumastar]

Mr. L is more important to Super Paper Mario's plot than Luigi, but they're the same person. Let's merge them!

 

[Vommack]

As I said above, Mr. L acts differently that Luigi. Shadow Mario doesn't.

 

[Lumastar]

As I said above, Mr. L acts differently that Luigi. Shadow Mario doesn't.

That is only one factor. Shadow Mario's importance in Super Mario Sunshine alone is enough to warrant him his own page. His appearance in Mario Golf: Toadstool Tour is not the reason he needs his own page.

 

[Vommack]

As I said above, Mr. L acts differently that Luigi. Shadow Mario doesn't.

That is only one factor. Shadow Mario's importance in Super Mario Sunshine alone is enough to warrant him his own page. His appearance in Mario Golf: Toadstool Tour is not the reason he needs his own page.

"Only one factor"? The same thing applies here. Mr. L was more important than Luigi, but Mr. L acts far differently than Luigi. Shadow Mario is more important than Bowser Jr., but they have no distinguishing characteristics other than the fact that one is a disguise.

 

[Walkazo]

Remember to keep in mind that we want to net search traffic as much as possible. People Google search for "Mr. L", so having an article brings them here, whereas if we merge it with Luigi would lose us that traffic. Same with "Dr. Mario" and "Bowletta" and, of course, "Shadow Mario". I doubt anyone searches for the "Goodwill Ambassador" - not when it's revealed right away that it's Cackletta. Shadow Mario runs around and does stuff for a lot longer, plus he appears separately from Junior and Mario in MG:TT - all the more reason for folks to search his name on the Internet, and/or expect us to have a page on him. And if we nuke that page, we leave potential readers high and dry and probably wondering why we don't have a page. That is a bad thing.

Not to mention the problem of where the MG:TT info would go if we scrap the page: can't go to Junior because there's nothing in the game saying Junior is him; can't go to Il Piantissimo because that's even more speculative; can't go to Mario because he was never a power-up of the original plumber so putting it there has no basis in fact at all. But with a Shadow Mario page, we have a perfectly logical and canonical place to put the info: we should leave it there.

Then there's the general "the more pages the merrier" philosophy. If it's named and you can write a decent page about it, you should write a decent page about it. Shadow Mario is named and we have already written a decent page about him. Wanting to scrap it is backwards thinking.

 

[Lumastar]

Remember to keep in mind that we want to net search traffic as much as possible. People Google search for "Mr. L", so having an article brings them here, whereas if we merge it with Luigi would lose us that traffic. Same with "Dr. Mario" and "Bowletta" and, of course, "Shadow Mario". I doubt anyone searches for the "Goodwill Ambassador" - not when it's revealed right away that it's Cackletta. Shadow Mario runs around and does stuff for a lot longer, plus he appears separately from Junior and Mario in MG:TT - all the more reason for folks to search his name on the Internet, and/or expect us to have a page on him. And if we nuke that page, we leave potential readers high and dry and probably wondering why we don't have a page. That is a bad thing.

Not to mention the problem of where the MG:TT info would go if we scrap the page: can't go to Junior because there's nothing in the game saying Junior is him; can't go to Il Piantissimo because that's even more speculative; can't go to Mario because he was never a power-up of the original plumber so putting it there has no basis in fact at all. But with a Shadow Mario page, we have a perfectly logical and canonical place to put the info: we should leave it there.

Then there's the general "the more pages the merrier" philosophy. If it's named and you can write a decent page about it, you should write a decent page about it. Shadow Mario is named and we have already written a decent page about him. Wanting to scrap it is backwards thinking.

Thank you for saving me the time. I agree with all of this. Do you finally accept that Shadow Mario needs his own page, Vommack?

 

[Lee Chaolan]

Remember to keep in mind that we want to net search traffic as much as possible. People Google search for "Mr. L", so having an article brings them here, whereas if we merge it with Luigi would lose us that traffic. Same with "Dr. Mario" and "Bowletta" and, of course, "Shadow Mario". I doubt anyone searches for the "Goodwill Ambassador" - not when it's revealed right away that it's Cackletta. Shadow Mario runs around and does stuff for a lot longer, plus he appears separately from Junior and Mario in MG:TT - all the more reason for folks to search his name on the Internet, and/or expect us to have a page on him. And if we nuke that page, we leave potential readers high and dry and probably wondering why we don't have a page. That is a bad thing.

Not to mention the problem of where the MG:TT info would go if we scrap the page: can't go to Junior because there's nothing in the game saying Junior is him; can't go to Il Piantissimo because that's even more speculative; can't go to Mario because he was never a power-up of the original plumber so putting it there has no basis in fact at all. But with a Shadow Mario page, we have a perfectly logical and canonical place to put the info: we should leave it there.

Then there's the general "the more pages the merrier" philosophy. If it's named and you can write a decent page about it, you should write a decent page about it. Shadow Mario is named and we have already written a decent page about him. Wanting to scrap it is backwards thinking.

Thank you for saving me the time. I agree with all of this. Do you finally accept that Shadow Mario needs his own page, Vommack?

Shadow Mario should stand for the same reason as Mr. Pipe, plus MG:TT adds to that factor. Gold Mario should not be compared to this matter however, as Gold Mario still has a page, therefore ensuring good traffic income, and he still is a Mario, just powered up, like simply changing for brief second, like Invincible Mario. I am considering proposing a set standard to this issue, tell me what you think.

 

[Walkazo]

I was actually going to mention Gold Mario and how the form page existing still nets us the traffic so we don't have to worry about searchers, but I cut that line for brevity.

Anyway, you mean this, right? (User:Ninelevendo/Work#The_big_TPP) It has to be a regular Proposal, not a TPP; Rule 4 is redundant; and Rule 1 is no good (and unnecessary if the point was to try and fit Shadow Mario in there somewhere, because he'd already get a page just going by 2 (SMS) and 3 (MG:TT) alone). "unintended to be distinguished as their real character", as well as unclear, is getting into speculation; better to merge that bit into Rule 2, and replace the vague "characteristic changes" with something wordier, like "Unless it involves major changes in the character's appearance, personality, etc. (Examples)". I would also say right there in that point that exactly what changes are major enough should still be up for debate and ultimate decided on via TPP if there's enough disagreement of the existence of a given page.

I think it's a good idea to have a list of general rules for what does and doesn't get a page for us to refer to (it can go in MarioWiki:New Articles Policy, which only covers level pages so far), and for the most part what you have reflects the criteria we're already using, but it's important that there's clear allowance for stuff like Shadow Mario to be decided case-by-case (again, like how we're already running the show): issues like this ain't purely black and white.

 

[Lee Chaolan]

I was actually going to mention Gold Mario and how the form page existing still nets us the traffic so we don't have to worry about searchers, but I cut that line for brevity.

Anyway, you mean this, right? (User:Ninelevendo/Work#The_big_TPP) It has to be a regular Proposal, not a TPP; Rule 4 is redundant; and Rule 1 is no good (and unnecessary if the point was to try and fit Shadow Mario in there somewhere, because he'd already get a page just going by 2 (SMS) and 3 (MG:TT) alone). "unintended to be distinguished as their real character", as well as unclear, is getting into speculation; better to merge that bit into Rule 2, and replace the vague "characteristic changes" with something wordier, like "Unless it involves major changes in the character's appearance, personality, etc. (Examples)". I would also say right there in that point that exactly what changes are major enough should still be up for debate and ultimate decided on via TPP if there's enough disagreement of the existence of a given page.

I think it's a good idea to have a list of general rules for what does and doesn't get a page for us to refer to (it can go in MarioWiki:New Articles Policy, which only covers level pages so far), and for the most part what you have reflects the criteria we're already using, but it's important that there's clear allowance for stuff like Shadow Mario to be decided case-by-case (again, like how we're already running the show): issues like this ain't purely black and white.

Well TPP is just my way of saying Proposal, Because I can't be bothered writing it. Rule 1 doesn't have enough in it right now, it should be They aren't supposed to be and aren't for a long while. it applies to Shadow and Mr. Pipe. It's a work in progress, and yes, it is a case-by-case thing, but if I can find a standard that fits everything perfectly, nicely and cleanly, you might change your mind. Even of this rule was there, people can always propose for a change or new rule, especially if a character has multiple rules, yet somehow doesn't fit.

 

[Walkazo]

"They aren't supposed to be and aren't for a long while." is still rather unclear.

And there's never a standard that fits everything perfectly. Clean is perfectly doable, but there's always gotta be wiggle room.

 

[Lee Chaolan]

"They aren't supposed to be and aren't for a long while." is still rather unclear.

And there's never a standard that fits everything perfectly. Clean is perfectly doable, but there's always gotta be wiggle room.

So what are you suggesting, Wiggler? Maybe there's not a perfect standard (Since when is something perfect?), but what's your idea with making it "clean". I'm sorta uncertain as to what you mean.

 

[Ray Trace]

I'm pretty sure "clean" means an informal, unwritten standards that rely on case-by-case bases rather than a rigid, uniform one

 

[Walkazo]

"They aren't supposed to be and aren't for a long while." is still rather unclear.

And there's never a standard that fits everything perfectly. Clean is perfectly doable, but there's always gotta be wiggle room.

So what are you suggesting, Wiggler? Maybe there's not a perfect standard (Since when is something perfect?), but what's your idea with making it "clean". I'm sorta uncertain as to what you mean.

Last I checked, my name ain't Wiggler.

And you were the first one to say you're hoping to "find a standard that fits everything perfectly, nicely and cleanly" - not my fault if you don't know what your own words mean.