Debate Your Character! (Newcomers AND Unconfirmed Veterans allowed)

ernesth100 said:
Character Name: Pac Man

Reasons why people think this character won't make it in:
Just because Namco is helping in Smash Bros doesn't mean he'll be in it.

Rebuttals/Opposite Argument to the reasons above:
True, but what if he is. What does anyone have against Pac-Man one of the most famous games in history? Plus he won't be a clone of anyone. Not that I know of because theres no character that actually has his design and or move set.
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One thing I'm concerned about PacMan is his several redesigns in both appearance and story canon. Especially in KartGPDX we can see he's using the newest appearance from recent TV show, while some old characters like his wife(?) don't seem to be in any newer PacMan creations. In some aspects, he's not the "classic" character as Nanmco define.

Not sure how Sonic Boom would be, but it seems like a one-time project since the SSB4 would still use the original Sonic design.
 
Northern Verve said:
I'm starting to think I should make my own version of the form even if Lolcrawler already did one with the Mii to illustrate the point on why I think Miis are practically inevitable at this point. Not that I'd be upset that they aren't. But those who REALLY don't want them, like to the point of boycotting the game if they're included (Yes people like that exist) should grow up and expect the Miis to get in at this point. It's getting to the point where people's childish behavior regarding the idea of Miis being playable is actually making me leaning toward supporting them.
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I'm so so sorry about the Gender thing :-\

I think that it would be advisable for you to create another form. There should be a separate form for editing someone Else's case for a character, such as my, which is a such a malleable and different individual character that has many possibilities
 
Actually I'll make a new rule which I'll post here but I'll also copy and paste onto the original post.

9. If there's a character you support that's already been put up. You can put up your own form if you feel they didn't explain your side enough, and it won't take away from your own character choice if you do so. (In other words, you can make more then one form other then the character you nominated as long as someone else nominated it)

I may put up an example by showing what I meant by when I said Lolcrawler's case for Miis could be much stronger then it was (I hope you don't take offense to that). I'm not the hugest supporter of the Miis, as I could shrug it off if they aren't in. But there's a pretty strong case for them, plus I want to give an example of a well-researched form.
 
Northern Verve said:
Actually I'll make a new rule which I'll post here but I'll also copy and paste onto the original post.

9. If there's a character you support that's already been put up. You can put up your own form if you feel they didn't explain your side enough, and it won't take away from your own character choice if you do so. (In other words, you can make more then one form other then the character you nominated as long as someone else nominated it)

I may put up an example by showing what I meant by when I said Lolcrawler's case for Miis could be much stronger then it was (I hope you don't take offense to that). I'm not the hugest supporter of the Miis, as I could shrug it off if they aren't in. But there's a pretty strong case for them, plus I want to give an example of a well-researched form.
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No offense taken. I suggested Mii that way because I thought that, while it wasn't the strongest of arguments, I 'd like to see it like that, because I would like the customizable factor. Also, you could have different reasons for wanting Mii in then I do. So I take no offense, and would actually like a different argument for Mii. Would make things interesting
 
Can I drop K. Rool? The debating is so unanimously for it that I would like suggest something more controversial. If so:
mp3c-ghor.jpg

Ghor for SSB4
Series: Metroid
First Appearance: Metroid Prime 3: Corruption
Reasons why people do not want him:
He is hardly relevant to the series

Reasons why I do want him:
Interesting Character
Good Moveset

My Moveset:
Special: Plasma Beam
Up Special: Changes into a robot with jet boosters
Side special: Turns arm into some sort of glowing sword and slashes
Down Special: Fires missiles down on the ground around him
Regular Attacks: Miscellaneous punches and kicks using his ability
Up Smash: Holds up a charging plasma beam which hurts opponents
Side Smash: Fires missile diagonally down
Down Smash: unleashing a large cylindrical laser that he sweeps in a wide arc
Final Smash:
This: (The giant thing)
Gohr2.jpg


Opening Statement: Though he is not particularly well known, or important, I believe he could be an interesting character to bring back, and he has a lot of potential as a brawler.
 
The problem with Ghor is he's outclassed by other Metroid possibilities. Especially Ridley. Even if it's not Ridley. There's also Dark Samus, the other Prime hunters, and (arguably) Anthony Higgs all are competition for another Metroid spot if Ridley can't be there.



On a side not I'll be working on the Mii thing I said would do. I cover what the majority of the reasons people say that Mii shouldn't be playable that I found on Smashboards. And I'll give an answer to every one of them. Miis are one of the most controversial potential characters because it seems most Smash speculators don't want them, but the sensible ones know they have a great chance. Even as someone who would not be upset if Miis aren't playable, I want to illustrate clearly why they're so inevitable.
 
Problems:
Size (Ridley issue)
Lack of Fame (huge issue)
Not enough background
And as Verve said outclassed by other, more interesting possibilities
 
Ghor could have a more interesting moveset than almost any other Metroid character.
@ Lolcrawler if you read about Ghor he has a good background, and is very interesting.
 
But ghor much less well known, in much less games, and has virtually non-existent fanbase, as appose to Ridley's, which gargantuan in comparison
 
The Big Nosed Dino said:
Ghor could have a more interesting moveset than almost any other Metroid character.
@ Lolcrawler if you read about Ghor he has a good background, and is very interesting.
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lol i forgot about ghor

too bad i never liked'em

plus ugly design
 
Here we go! Apologies for anyone if this is too much. But Miis are a character that's highly controversial. And I wanted to say something about all the major things people have said that were a concern about the Miis that I could find.



Nintendo-Land.jpg


Character Name: Mii(/s)
Series: Wii Series (Wii Sports, Wii Fit, Wii Party, etc.)
Debut Game: Wii Sports

Reasons why people don't think this character will make it in (AKA Wii would like to play, but not as Miiself)
-Them having Customizable Movesets could break the game
-Nintendo would never allow the Miis to participate in a Fighting game like this
-Mii's have no established Personality/Are just Avatars
-They're too casual. Smash Bros. is for Hardcore fans only. Players of the game would not care for the Miis
-They'd have to animate every single different combination you can do with the Miis and/or it'd be too much work
-They're too recent/If Nintendo wanted to include Miis they would have put them in Brawl.
-Miis are annoying, their voices are annoying, I just plain hate them so much!
-They're not well-liked enough
-There'd be countless Miis online. Controversial ones like Hitler or Dickfaces as well
-Their movesets would be too generic
-Miis would ruin what Smash Bros. is all about

Rebuttals/Opposite argument to the reasons above (AKA Let Mii tell U why that's bullshit)

They don't necessarily have to have Customizable Movesets. And even if they do. They have to have a default option that's well-rounded right? Tourneys can simply ban Customized moveset Miis if there's an ability to make them broken, and take the default option as the Miis spot on the tier lists. But I'm not sure how good the chances are anyway that a Mii's moveset could be customizable.

Ironically, the very first game (Wii Sports) Miis were in have Miis in pain worse then anything in the Smash Bros. series. In Boxing, Miis can crumple to the floor. Even if it's cartoon violence, isn't that essentially what Smash Bros. is? Perhaps the fact that the Miis tend to represent real people might be an issue. Taking out your anger on a caricature of a person that's been annoying you or that you hate (Though I suppose it's better then actually hitting that person in real life). But it's not like this is Mortal Kombat, you won't be able to rip internal organs out of characters that might represent your friends, family, etc. So from that end, it can't really be more controversial then how you can have Miis destroy each other in Mario Kart. The controversy is pretty much nonexistent there.

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Moving on.

This is a generalization that ticks me off. Smash Bros. is for all Nintendo fans. The fact it shows off so much history with the roster, trophies, and more is rewards for long-time fans for recognizing them. While for the more casual fans, they just want to play as their favorite mainstream Nintendo character and have fun fighting as them. For some of those fans, a Mii counts as such even if they usually consider playing as a Mii to be playing as themselves. Part of the appeal of Smash Bros. is actually turning the players who just got them for one character and allowing them to discover firsthand other characters and other games they've never tried. Let's be honest here, unless you got your first Smash game later in life when you heard about the competitive scene or whatever. What was the very reason you bought your first Smash Bros. game? You wanted to play as Mario, or Link, or Pikachu and fight against other Nintendo stars because the idea of a multiplayer mascot fighter particularly from Nintendo is just an awesome concept in it's own right. That's the casual aspect of the game. It only gets into hardcore when the player starts to absorb all the little details that's put into the game. Such as the quirks, strengths, weaknesses, of all the characters playable. Or read carefully all the trophy descriptions.

Some people will want to play this game to play as their Mii. But those same fans could be gradually converted to fans like us that discover the many series in this game just like how we started as Mario, Pokemon, and/or Legend of Zelda fans and found us branching into other Nintendo franchises thanks to Smash Brothers. Fire Emblem sure wouldn't be the international success it is now without Marth and Roy's inclusion in Melee. The Mother series probably would of been made a lot more obscure if Ness or Lucas were never in the series. Perhaps the concern is that many Mii game fans will play the game as their Mii for a little while but once they got bored with that they'd barely play the game again. But I'm pretty sure that won't be the case for everybody. Smash Bros. increases popularity for every franchise is in because it introduces characters to those who have never heard of them. One of the many reasons it's for both new Nintendo fans and longtime Nintendo fans is the game can convert those who are playing games for only one or a few franchises into many.

Additionally, let's face it. The Smash Bros. series isn't considered as "hardcore" as many other Fighter games that came prior to the series. Yes there's the huge competitive scene for Melee in particular. But I'm sure even that game is disregarded, as unfair as it is, by people who go to tournaments for games like Street Fighter or Tekken.

Completely false. If this was a problem, Miis probably would never be included in games like Mario Kart Wii or games that have the option of using your Mii. Heck all the Mii games themselves would be a hassle if they had to do this. But anyway, it's the system that handles the Mii's different looks. The game's themselves just have a template that reads off the System memory on how the Mii looks. As strange as you can get with the options. Like parts of the face being somewhat off the head. It's as easy to implement as the more normal designed Miis thanks to the system itself handling things. Not the game.

Not really. What makes a character too recent for Smash is if their debut game is released around the start of development of a Smash game. Smash Bros. also tends to celebrate the previous generation. This is obvious in how the most recent series represented in Brawl was Pikmin, which until Pikmin 3 came out was exclusively on the Gamecube at the time. The newest character in general was Lucario. Which was on a predominately handheld series but still generally there as the Gamecube generation was coming to an end. Melee and SSB64 also did similar things for the N64 & SNES respectively. Smash 4 already seems to be following in their footsteps by including stuff from the Wii generation. Just look at most of the newcomers: Wii Fit Trainer (Wii Fit), Villager (The default design being what the male villager looks like on the cover of City Folk), Rosalina (Super Mario Galaxy), and Little Mac (Punch-Out Wii). This is also the reason why Miis weren't put into Brawl. The Miis were too new for Brawl, but this is no longer the case for SSB4 as they've been around for a good 7 years now.

Oh no! An opinion! I guess Miis won't make it in after all since apparently this one person dislikes them…

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On a more serious note, I won't lie that some of the voices they've given the Miis weren't exactly the best choices they could of done… especially the MK7 voices. >_<. But if anything, perhaps Miis could be silent like the Villager is. The Miis were mainly silent in their debut game, so those who are worrying they'll give Miis a voice that makes Jason Griffith's Sonic and the pre-Uprising Pit voice look a lot more tolerable there's a beacon of hope that at least Miis won't make our ears bleed.

Maybe not by seemingly a lot of Smash speculators. But given that the Wii series takes up nearly half of the Top 10 most selling games. The Top 3 happening to be Wii Sports, Wii Play, and Wii Fit. There has to be a large enough base that likes the Mii games. Even if they're not necessarily big Smash Bros. fans… yet at least. Also well-liked hasn't stopped other characters from surprising us by getting in the game. Wii Fit Trainer being the most recent example, ROB being another one. And although he didn't really have a hate base like Miis, WFT, and ROB seemed to have gotten. Mr. Game and Watch was also one that caught people off-guard on not being well-known

This could only happen if you go into With Anyone. Which is a mixed bag anyway, considering you could run into people using the most spamable characters. Or the ones that just run away and try to annoy you with their taunts. The easy solution is just to find some good friends who would never do such a thing.

And on controversial Miis like Hitler or Dickfaced Miis, that didn't get Mario Kart Wii or any other game with Miis playable online any notable flack. Why is suddenly Smash Bros. the great "We must think about the children and/or the sensitive people!"?

Perhaps if you only look at Wii Sports. But that's being a bit shallow and only looking at one game. Since then, Miis have had many other games to borrow a decent moveset from. Quirks from Wii Play, Wii Party, Wii Fit, and even the Wii Channel itself could be used for potential moveset ideas. You also have stuff like Streetpass Quest/Find Mii which the Miis were in a full-on RPG with items and even special abilities depending on the Mii's favorite color (Ex: Red colored Miis had Fire magic capabilities).

Even if all they had was sports to go with. Sakurai has done wonders with less then that. He's turned a race car driver into a memetic mutation with his style of play (Captain Falcon), and an NES peripheral into a capable fighter (ROB). Sakurai has enough creative intelligence to come up with something the character has never done before in any games before, but manages to make it natural enough that it oddly fits anyway. The fact Mii's moveset can be based on anything at all is already a step ahead of many others who without knowing if they were going to be in Smash, we'd struggle to come up with a full moveset for.

You have a twisted sense of what Smash Bros. is all about if you think Miis being included would be the so-called "Jump the Shark" moment. Also I'm pretty sure we've had a few characters in the series that we'd hesitate to call Nintendo All-Stars. If you feel any characters that aren't included for All-Star status then I suppose the series went downhill at Melee. Because who considers Pichu an all-star? Or Dr. Mario? Yes I know technically Dr. Mario is still Mario which is probably the most All-Star you can get in Smash Bros. But since he's included as a separate character from Mario for some reason and not an alternate costume. Is Mario's Dr. Mario alter ego really a Nintendo All-Star deserving of his own slot? And while I'm sure there's people who do really believe this, how about when Brawl decided to start including 3rd Party characters? Snake and Sonic are all-stars in a sense. But they're not NINTENDO All-Stars. But I don't think this should be the point: Miis are Nintendo All-Stars, like it or not. Some of you may not recognize them as such. But by now they have a pretty extensive library of games they've been included in and were a big reason the Wii was the success it was. And from the way the 3DS and the Wii U use them, they're not going away anytime soon.

As a bonus here's a little known fact: Something like the Miis were once planned for the NES/Famicon at one point. But probably due to technical difficulties, it was canceled and Nintendo wouldn't be able to properly include them until the Wii came around. In other words the Mii was something that's been in over 20 years in the making. Meaning as much as they seem a little too new considerably. This wasn't an idea Nintendo just came up with back in 2005 or 2006 out of the blue to try to appeal to a new audience of gamers. Nintendo has long wanted an Avatar system to be implemented for a long while now. The fact Ice Climbers and ROB are more acceptable it seems is because they're retro reps so they're cool throwbacks to Nintendo's past and it's why not too many people call them out for not being Nintendo icons. But while the fact Miis were almost an NES idea doesn't exactly show why they must be in the same exact way. The point is that the Miis ARE Nintendo Icons. We have a new generation of gamers growing up where their very first system was the Wii. For many, the Wii games are this generation's Super Mario World, or Super Mario 64. While you could argue that the Mii Games can't be applied to your experiences with your first game on the SNES or the N64, the point stands that the Mii games are becoming a nostalgic game for a generation growing up. Isn't that what Smash Bros. truly is about? Representing and entertaining our childhood fantasies by letting us play as our favorite Nintendo characters, and meeting up with some of our other favorites? Mii games aren't going to be that nostalgic for a lot of you because you had a much different gaming experience then the young gamers of today. For some, using the Mii has the same appeal we had when we played our first Smash game where our first thoughts were that we were just excited to fight as Mario, Link, or Pikachu.

It just comes all down as ironic that one of the reasons people think Miis should not be playable in Smash is for this reason. Yet's it's a little obvious that Miis are actually more representative of Nintendo then a lot of the already confirmed characters are.

Opening statement on why you believe this character should be playable

I want to make this clear: I won't be effected too much either way regarding if Miis get playable or not. If they're not I'll shrug it off even if from what I said in this post, it'd seem like a missed opportunity.

You may be asking if I don't actually care if the Miis are playable or not. Why did I get so extensive with arguing against all of the major points against the Mii's inclusion? Well part of it, is technically it's not completely true. The fact people are being rather ignorant has been making me lean towards wanting to see the Miis in just to prove the detractors wrong. But still the only big disappointment I'd have if they didn't make it is that the people who were being complete dicks about the whole thing would suddenly feel their points were justified. And it'd take me completely by surprise at this point that they aren't playable.

I also just wanted to give a pretty good example of a complete form and maybe open people's eyes for a moment that Smash Bros. can be a lot broader then we think. It'd represent what Nintendo wanted to do with the Wii by broadening the Audience. Smash Bros. is ALL things Nintendo. You can't just market Smash Bros. to only a niche part of the fanbase, or only half of it. The Smash Bros. series would eventually fail if they kept doing that. Evolving with Nintendo's interests in market is the smartest decision anyone can do with Smash Bros. as it makes the game more then just a game. But also a time capsule of what came before and what was going on at that time. Not everyone likes the direction Nintendo has gone these days, but that may just be exactly why the Mii is such a subject of controversy in the Smash Bros. community or the Nintendo fanbase in general. Many people have different opinions on how Nintendo should direct their gaming focus. For some it's less Mario, Pokemon, and Zelda. And more F-Zero, Starfox, and Metroid. For others it's vice versa. There's so many franchises that are represented in Smash Bros. that some believe their franchises are overrepresented or underrepresented no matter what the franchise got in the actual Smash Bros. games. And that's all from even before the Wii came out. With the Miis coming in, and Nintendo wanting to give a new focus and bringing in a different type of fan then who we're used to. Fans of the much older franchises feel threatened by this new wave and fear whether it's well founded or not, that Nintendo will focus too much on this new direction and completely forget about their favorite older franchise. Which I'll admit is probably the sad truth for some of you.

If you truly feel Miis would ruin the Smash Bros. experience you hope to get with SSB4. Maybe you just were one of those fans that were turned off by the Miis from the very day they were brought up as concepts and you just can't accept them. That's ok though, you don't have to agree with where Nintendo is going these days. You may even find yourself interested more into other companies that may be more to your needs then Nintendo is these days. But as it stands, adding the Mii as playable in SSB4 would add a little more perfection with what the Smash Bros. series is really about. And it might be a good idea to be a little more mindful, and less ignorant & inconsiderate about this.
 
Javelin, what post was longer?
@Verve in comparison to that post, any argument could seem weak. Remind me to want the same characters you do again
 
wait people actually think smash bros is for hardcore gamers?

:lol:
 
Yoshiwaker said:
Dr. Javelin said:
Lolcrawler said:
Javelin, what post was longer?
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tabuu's response to the memorial day incident
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nope, this one is actually about a page(with my browser) longer
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oh okay

in that case i believe some conglaturation is due sm

...

WEEEEEELLLLL DOOOOONNNNNNEEEE!!!!!

SONICMARIO, A WINNER IS YOU!

You have officially created the longest (?) post in forum history, passing the previous record holder of Tabuu's response to the Memorial Day Incident. With the authority invested in me (read: none) I hereby award with the Marioboards Gold Medal for Giant Posts.

CONGLATURATION
DragonFreak said:
Dr. Javelin said:
maybe, but he often spoilers parts which cuts down on the time it takes to scroll past it
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You don't even at least attempt to skim it?
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I skim them when they're on a topic that interests me.
 
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