Mario & Luigi: Superstar Saga + Bowser's Minions

I don't think it was a good decision to remove the flight uniforms but at the same time I don't think arguing about it will help at all. I'm in no place to argue since this will probably be the best Mario RPG for me to enjoy since Super Paper Mario. Even with odd design choices, it's not like they'll retcon Cackletta and Fawful, my favorite part of the original game so I think complaints like this are best saved for the Paper Mario series which is hurting a lot more from these kinds of issues.
 
TheSuperStarSaga said:
The minion quest shouldn't have a bearing on the retention of the flight suit koopas designs. They could still have the game mode without needing to retcon the flight suit koopa design.

Unfortunately I'm going to have to call them flight suit koopas, because that's what they are. The crew of the Koopa Cruiser wear uniforms. The barrel goombas remain the same, so there's no need to refer to them as barrel goombas.

You still fail to present a reasonable argument as to why removing the flight suit koopas is beneficial, or the generic washing of any characters in the RPGs in recent years. If something only removes, and doesn't add anything in compensation, why defend it?
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You play as Bowser's minions in the beanbean kingdom, koopa cruiser brings them to the beanbean kingdom. It's just a basic mark of consistency. Especially since unlike their hatted counterparts, these ones will actually be doing some fighting.

And in Paper Mario koopas wore shades and spiked collars, swoopers were purple instead of blue or green, and a whole bunch of other nonsense. Did they change their names? No because thats stupid. It's just a koopa troopa, wearing a hat, they don't act differently, they don't sound differently, they are just wearing hats.

Also the term "generic washing" is on top of that another stupid term. They aren't "washing" anything, just using their updated designs, like everything else in this goddamn franchise.
 
Mcmadness said:
You play as Bowser's minions in the beanbean kingdom, koopa cruiser brings them to the beanbean kingdom. It's just a basic mark of consistency. Especially since unlike their hatted counterparts, these ones will actually be doing some fighting.
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Consistency is a fair point, yet they still didn't need to remove the flight suits. Bowser's Minions is an extension to the original story, if we're seeing the story of the surviving crew of the Koopa Cruiser, they should look like the original crew. Not replacements with generic Koopas. if consistency between the two gametypes was a priority, they should have just kept the flight suit designs on the Koopas in both Superstar Saga Deluxe and Bowser's Minions. It was an unnecessary sacrifice, still unbeneficial. What was there to gain from making them generic Koopas in the first place?

Mcmadness said:
And in Paper Mario koopas wore shades and spiked collars, swoopers were purple instead of blue or green, and a whole bunch of other nonsense. Did they change their names? No because thats stupid. It's just a koopa troopa, wearing a hat, they don't act differently, they don't sound differently, they are just wearing hats.

Also the term "generic washing" is on top of that another stupid term. They aren't "washing" anything, just using their updated designs, like everything else in this goddang franchise.
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The issue is, it's hard to see it as harmlessly updating their designs after Miyamoto told Paper Mario devs to only use generic characters saying "As much as possible, complete it with only characters from the Super Mario world." regarding Sticker Star. Those words alone seem harmless, but actions speak louder than words. Evident of Sticker Star we saw seas of generic Toads, Koopas, and Goombas no new/old original characters in sight and everyone hated it. It's a trend that has stuck as evident of Tanabe, a Paper Mario dev, recently saying "Mario is not an IP that I created. From the position of someone borrowing the IP, I think it's only natural to show respect to the person who created it, and let that feeling of respect guide us. So when Miyamoto-san, the father of Mario, asks us "could you make a game with only characters from the Mario family?", I think it's only natural for us to give it our best shot. In other words, we are not currently thinking about returning to old NPCs." regarding Color Splash. All this trend does is hurt fans, as many fans love the original characters, original designs and would love to see old and brand new ones in the games. This trend benefits no one except for Miyamoto's own personal preference. So why defend it? It is implied that this recent lack of original characters and overabundance of generic Toads, Koopas, and Goombas in the Mario & Luigi series is also result of this, if even to a lesser extent. It's a trend with Paper Mario at this point, so it's hard to see it as an innocent coincidence with Mario & Luigi.

In 2001, Paper Mario used the up to date Mario enemy designs. In it's own way it was bringing things up to date. But it still had all those unique original characters, and classic toad/koopa/goombas but given personalities with clothing, facial hair, etc.

Bringing a character design up to date doesn't mean it has to be made generic. We could have instead had a modern Koopa design with green boots, but with a more detailed flight hat and jacket, that would still be an update of design.

There's no reason why bringing designs up to date means it has to be generic.
 
Probably, I'll own up to the fact that I'm bias since this was my childhood game.

That aside though, when nice things get removed for no reason, I just find it hard to excuse. We all pay tax, it sucks because we lose money, but it pays for other services to help everyone so at least it's a compromise.

With the subtraction of Original Characters, there's really no benefit or payoff to anyone. It's a blatant subtraction, so I don't see the logic in tolerating it.

Sure, I can say it's not a big deal. And you're right, it really isn't, since it's just a small video game in the big scheme of life. But I could apply that trump card to devalue any video game debate. Why have the discussion at all then in that case, yeah? xD
 
Mcmadness said:
Also the term "generic washing" is on top of that another stupid term. They aren't "washing" anything, just using their updated designs, like everything else in this goddang franchise.
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It's not "generic washing" nor is it "updating the designs" if you're referring to Koopa aviation wear.

Removing Koopa flight suits is just plain lazy.

They had Koopas that look like the standard Koopas but in aviation suits in Partners in Time, so they already "updated" it in that sense.

In the grand scheme of things, though, it's a disappointment at worst but it won't affect my overall perception of the game. They're just cute outfits, that's all.
 
While of course I actually like variety, also in clothing, we are all underestimating an important factor, in my opinion.


It took AlphaDream like seven years to realize all the sprites of Dream Team, according to the Iwata Asks. Deriving assets from previous games, namely Mario & Luigi: Dream Team and Mario & Luigi: Paper Jam might not be nice looking for the fans - no flight uniforms, modern Iggy Koopa design instead of a "new old design", bipedal Troopeas - but it costs little money and especially little time, that is then reserved for the updated unrelated original characters' sprites. Let's face it, 8 directions pixel art based RPGs in two years aren't a realistic goal without important compromises. I think we are seeing a "lesser evil" to have an updated version of Superstar Saga that otherwise might have been canned altogether since 3DS pixel art on Switch just doesn't work right - too detailed to be retro, not enough detailed for modern Switch games.
 
3D models are so much easier to work with, huh.
 
LeftyGreenMario said:
3D models are so much easier to work with, huh.
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Indeed, yet no Mario RPGs is based exclusively on them - ultimately in Paper Mario the character textures are the relevant part -, which is surprising and to me also fascinating.
 
Not even Puzzles and Dragons, right? But we'll have our first 3D RPG: Mario + Rabbids.
 
LeftyGreenMario said:
Not even Puzzles and Dragons, right? But we'll have our first 3D RPG: Mario + Rabbids.
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OH GOD I MANAGED TO NOT THINK ABOUT THIS GAME FOR THE PAST HOUR WHY DID YOU HAVE TO REMIND ME
 
Kumiko Oumae said:
LeftyGreenMario said:
Not even Puzzles and Dragons, right? But we'll have our first 3D RPG: Mario + Rabbids.
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OH GOD I MANAGED TO NOT THINK ABOUT THIS GAME FOR THE PAST HOUR WHY DID YOU HAVE TO REMIND ME
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Wait does this imply that you think about it at least once an hour normally?

I know a good psychiatrist, let me give you his number...
 
Sorry for causing you to whine again about a game you don't like existing.

This shit's getting old.
 
Mister Wu said:
While of course I actually like variety, also in clothing, we are all underestimating an important factor, in my opinion.


It took AlphaDream like seven years to realize all the sprites of Dream Team, according to the Iwata Asks. Deriving assets from previous games, namely Mario & Luigi: Dream Team and Mario & Luigi: Paper Jam might not be nice looking for the fans - no flight uniforms, modern Iggy Koopa design instead of a "new old design", bipedal Troopeas - but it costs little money and especially little time, that is then reserved for the updated unrelated original characters' sprites. Let's face it, 8 directions pixel art based RPGs in two years aren't a realistic goal without important compromises. I think we are seeing a "lesser evil" to have an updated version of Superstar Saga that otherwise might have been canned altogether since 3DS pixel art on Switch just doesn't work right - too detailed to be retro, not enough detailed for modern Switch games.
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The thing is that the Koopas sprites in Superstar Saga + Bowser's Minions, are completely different from the Koopa sprites in Dream Team and Paper Jam.
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Because they made the Koopa sprite from the ground up for Superstar Saga + Bowser's Minions, they could have easily gave them flight suits while they were at it. So it's not a resource management/time/budget or even a laziness issue. They deliberately choose to make them generic Koopas instead of flight suit Koopas. Since they had the time to make a new sprite from the ground up anyway.
 
I don't know how much any of you care about what I might have to say, but in my opinion, these arguments are petty. Some people will mind more than others and you won't change their minds but at the end of the day, they're just a small disappointment that's nothing to lose sleep over.
 
I don't really care all too much about the flight suits problem, I care more about what it represents: the bastardization of characters in the mario series. For some reason, Miyamoto hates anything that's different for the Mario series story-wise, so they've been slowly making the games less creative in that department.
 
I wish people stop accusing Miyamoto of "hating" things different for the Mario series story-wise.
 
He doesn't hate them, I don't think anybody hates them. That's a strong word, but I think there is a gravitation towards staying safe and predictable in Mario games, and that has hurt a lot of subseries that used to take risks and end up better for it. The main series too, at one point (the 2D platformers mainly, but 3D Land is also a heavy case of it, 3D World to some extent but not as much as the others).

Thankfully Odyssey is not only throwing a lot of tired conventions out, but is looking like the best Mario game in arguably over a decade because of it. Hopefully when Odyssey releases and is well-received, Nintendo starts using that mindset in spinoffs as well.
 
ArchagentEverlasting said:
For some reason, Miyamoto hates anything that's different for the Mario series story-wise, so they've been slowly making the games less creative in that department.
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When it comes to Mario, stick with the characters, but look somewhere else if you want story.
 
Baby Luigi said:
I wish people stop accusing Miyamoto of "hating" things different for the Mario series story-wise.
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I will when someone points me to evidence that he doesn't hate these things. He told the Sticker Star team to only have characters from the main games, and he removed a lot of story stuff from Super Mario Galaxy 2.

LeftyGreenMario said:
When it comes to Mario, stick with the characters, but look somewhere else if you want story.
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Why should I when the RPGs have shown they can tell great stories?
 
because games can have more compelling stories than "GET THE SEVEN MAGICAL TEAPOTS OR EVIL MCEVILFACE WILL DESTROY WHOLE WORLD, GO BOOM, ALL DEAD"
 
Magikrazy said:
because games can have more compelling stories than "GET THE SEVEN MAGICAL TEAPOTS OR EVIL MCEVILFACE WILL DESTROY WHOLE WORLD, GO BOOM, ALL DEAD"
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In the case you were replying to me....

While the basic plot was just that, it felt more interesting. I know games can have more compelling stories (read: Final Fantasy VI is my favorite game of all time).
 
LeftyGreenMario said:
ArchagentEverlasting said:
For some reason, Miyamoto hates anything that's different for the Mario series story-wise, so they've been slowly making the games less creative in that department.
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When it comes to Mario, stick with the characters, but look somewhere else if you want story.
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That's rather arbitrary. Why limit the entire franchise to only having good gameplay and never a good story?
 
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